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Israel v Hamas

Living In Hope said:
I agree with most of the recent comments. My sympathy was broadly with the Israelis, but what they are doing now is crazy. It's just stoking a situation which needs to be calmed down (however that might be achieved), and those of us in the West will undoubtedly become targets by association. Our nation's support for Israel needs to be conditional on their adherence to international law (ie no illegal settlements) and on responses which are not wildly disproportionate. To say their country is let down by Netanyahu is an understatement. But I guess it is easy for me to pronounce on this from the comfort of the Home Counties.
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If our support was conditional upon illegal settlements or 'international law' (which is mostly myth) then we would have been against Israel for many decades.

Netanyahu isn't that different in terms of illegal settlements than the general trend since the sixties.

The main reason the British support Israel is because we are a client state of the US and we are subject to political and financial 'special interests'. Add in the media and we get sold a continual narrative on the issue....A narrative that's suffered greatly in the modern age as video from Gaza proves.

The truth is that, like Ukraine, excepting trade, this part of the world should have nothing to do with us. We left Palestine/Israel back in the 40s when they bombed our troops (killing 56) in the King David hotel and hanged two of our sergeants to hurry us out.

We shouldn't really have a 'side'.....and if we are taking a side on a moral front personally I'd regard the state of Israel as frequently acting like a psychopath (obsessed with getting the might of the US to fight its wars), Israel gets to ignore the international norms set for others because bought and sold big brother ensures that double standard.....Why? Aside from the lobby money and media and corporate power apparently we are meant to feel responsible for Hitler (who we defeated...well mostly the soviets defeated).
 
Stirlingsays said:
If our support was conditional upon illegal settlements or 'international law' (which is mostly myth) then we would have been against Israel for many decades.

Netanyahu isn't that different in terms of illegal settlements than the general trend since the sixties.

The main reason the British support Israel is because we are a client state of the US and we are subject to political and financial 'special interests'. Add in the media and we get sold a continual narrative on the issue....A narrative that's suffered greatly in the modern age as video from Gaza proves.

The truth is that, like Ukraine, excepting trade, this part of the world should have nothing to do with us. We left Palestine/Israel back in the 40s when they bombed our troops (killing 56) in the King David hotel and hanged two of our sergeants to hurry us out.

We shouldn't really have a 'side'.....and if we are taking a side on a moral front personally I'd regard the state of Israel as frequently acting like a psychopath (obsessed with getting the might of the US to fight its wars), Israel gets to ignore the international norms set for others because bought and sold big brother ensures that double standard.....Why? Aside from the lobby money and media and corporate power apparently we are meant to feel responsible for Hitler (who we defeated...well mostly the soviets defeated).
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Difficult to disagree with any of this.

I believe pro Israel is partly dictated by faith with Jews and many Christians believing Israelis have an actual God-given right to the Holy Land. Those people wield a lot of power, have unlimited resources and are relentless and unmovable.

For the average Joe it is significantly dictated by race. I am not raising a lazy argument of all white people being racist. It is more race perception which we all suffer from. Thus, white western governments well run and efficient. Brown eastern governments all inefficient and riddled with corruption and backwards theology. Some underlying truth, of course, but a lazy stereotype. The unfortunate side-effect is white Israel always being preferred over its brown neighbours.

Also 9/11 and the aftermath atrocities. A colossal own goal for Islam and a price Palestinians are now paying. If this was Timor or Kurdistan and we could see them as largely defenseless, innocent victims of a vengeful and brutal, superior power, any support for Israel would have vanished some time ago. However, those Palestinians. Are they really innocent? 9/11!?

All Israel needs to do is refer to Hamas and Hezbollah as "terrorists" and the money and guns keep flooding in. True, they don't do themselves any favours. Many behave like fanatic Jihadists and deserve to be labeled. After all, if they look like a duck, swim like a duck and quack like a duck, they're terrorist's. On the other hand, if they had a charismatic, secular leader who looked and acted like Che Guevara, the world would be wearing his t-shirt. But look at the current Hezbollah leader. Just another ranting cleric who immediately conjures images of Bin Laden and a world caliphate.

Since the events of 7th October, Israel have clearly been the bad guys in this. Even with colossal masking, information control and propaganda you can still clearly see that Israel's conduct has been illegal, widely disproportionate and amoral. They are wholly the aggressor and are waiting for retaliation to say: see, we told you they were terrorists. And our West will largely support them even if they don't wholly believe them.
 
Stirlingsays said:
If our support was conditional upon illegal settlements or 'international law' (which is mostly myth) then we would have been against Israel for many decades.

Netanyahu isn't that different in terms of illegal settlements than the general trend since the sixties.

The main reason the British support Israel is because we are a client state of the US and we are subject to political and financial 'special interests'. Add in the media and we get sold a continual narrative on the issue....A narrative that's suffered greatly in the modern age as video from Gaza proves.

The truth is that, like Ukraine, excepting trade, this part of the world should have nothing to do with us. We left Palestine/Israel back in the 40s when they bombed our troops (killing 56) in the King David hotel and hanged two of our sergeants to hurry us out.

We shouldn't really have a 'side'.....and if we are taking a side on a moral front personally I'd regard the state of Israel as frequently acting like a psychopath (obsessed with getting the might of the US to fight its wars), Israel gets to ignore the international norms set for others because bought and sold big brother ensures that double standard.....Why? Aside from the lobby money and media and corporate power apparently we are meant to feel responsible for Hitler (who we defeated...well mostly the soviets defeated).
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I don't disagree with much of what you say. However my sympathy has tended to be with Israel, firstly because it is a liberal democracy with social values broadly similar to ours (the usual extremists apart), and is surrounded by hostile countries, with values very different from ours, and some with governments which don't accept Israel's right to exist. Secondly the appalling anti-semitism around WW2 makes me deeply uncomfortable about organisations and people who are aggressive to Israel and Jewish people. And thirdly in the current conflict, I can honestly say that if a neighbouring country's government sent terrorists into the UK to murder 1,200 British civilians going about their daily lives, I would be demanding the strongest possible action to remove and destroy that government. Has the action gone far too far ? Yes absolutely it has. And has Israel been whiter than white ? Absolutely not, and in particular I have always felt that a programme of withdrawal from illegal settlements should have been a condition of the UK's overt support for the country. And it seems currently that Israeli government behaviour is increasingly aggressive, expansionary and wayward.
 
Living In Hope said:
I don't disagree with much of what you say. However my sympathy has tended to be with Israel, firstly because it is a liberal democracy with social values broadly similar to ours (the usual extremists apart), and is surrounded by hostile countries, with values very different from ours, and some with governments which don't accept Israel's right to exist. Secondly the appalling anti-semitism around WW2 makes me deeply uncomfortable about organisations and people who are aggressive to Israel and Jewish people. And thirdly in the current conflict, I can honestly say that if a neighbouring country's government sent terrorists into the UK to murder 1,200 British civilians going about their daily lives, I would be demanding the strongest possible action to remove and destroy that government. Has the action gone far too far ? Yes absolutely it has. And has Israel been whiter than white ? Absolutely not, and in particular I have always felt that a programme of withdrawal from illegal settlements should have been a condition of the UK's overt support for the country. And it seems currently that Israeli government behaviour is increasingly aggressive, expansionary and wayward.
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A 'liberal democracy with social values'?

I don't agree that it's very liberal....much of a democracy....nor has social values anything like as good as a couple of generation ago....and that goes for here just as much as for anywhere else in the west.

I regard the real 'extremists' to have been the ones who led us to our current economic and social mess of managed decline. They regard themselves as good people but I think they bury their heads in the sand.....really it's the same old story of 'I'm alright Jack' as it ever was.

As for what constitutes 'anti-semitism', that appears to be anything negative attached to anything Jewish. It's not different to the race card used to silence comment and disquiet. Commentary then amounts to extremely biased conclusions which is about as far away from 'social values' as someone can get....indeed, it shows all this 'equality' waffle people put out for what it is (something I've never believed existed anyway)

The Palestinians and most of the Arab world are also Semites, yet no one seems to have an issue criticizing them and ignoring the pleas of their bombed children.

I'm no fan of the Islamic world, nor of Palestine.....However, if people value truth, then they should call a spade a spade. Israel gets to do what it wants and that comes with a moral price when we supply the means.
 
beak said:
The two sides will fight on until only one remains,good luck to Israel.
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Not in a nuclear and chemical world they don't.

That's what I fear the future is within that region the way it's going.

I don't think we get the luxury of just letting them duke it out.....perhaps if we had never got involved in the first place but we are heavily implicated in this now.
 
silvertop said:
Difficult to disagree with any of this.

I believe pro Israel is partly dictated by faith with Jews and many Christians believing Israelis have an actual God-given right to the Holy Land. Those people wield a lot of power, have unlimited resources and are relentless and unmovable.

For the average Joe it is significantly dictated by race. I am not raising a lazy argument of all white people being racist. It is more race perception which we all suffer from. Thus, white western governments well run and efficient. Brown eastern governments all inefficient and riddled with corruption and backwards theology. Some underlying truth, of course, but a lazy stereotype. The unfortunate side-effect is white Israel always being preferred over its brown neighbours.

Also 9/11 and the aftermath atrocities. A colossal own goal for Islam and a price Palestinians are now paying. If this was Timor or Kurdistan and we could see them as largely defenseless, innocent victims of a vengeful and brutal, superior power, any support for Israel would have vanished some time ago. However, those Palestinians. Are they really innocent? 9/11!?

All Israel needs to do is refer to Hamas and Hezbollah as "terrorists" and the money and guns keep flooding in. True, they don't do themselves any favours. Many behave like fanatic Jihadists and deserve to be labeled. After all, if they look like a duck, swim like a duck and quack like a duck, they're terrorist's. On the other hand, if they had a charismatic, secular leader who looked and acted like Che Guevara, the world would be wearing his t-shirt. But look at the current Hezbollah leader. Just another ranting cleric who immediately conjures images of Bin Laden and a world caliphate.

Since the events of 7th October, Israel have clearly been the bad guys in this. Even with colossal masking, information control and propaganda you can still clearly see that Israel's conduct has been illegal, widely disproportionate and amoral. They are wholly the aggressor and are waiting for retaliation to say: see, we told you they were terrorists. And our West will largely support them even if they don't wholly believe them.
Click to expand...

Let's be honest, European Jews who consider themselves white have always been a great benefit to the west. However, they are a minority within that ethnic group. Most consider themselves as their own distinct non white (European) group....even though genetically that can be somewhat self delusion. Trump was complaining about how he only gets 24 percent of the Jewish vote despite being the most 'pro Israel' of politicians and one of the reasons for that is that the majority of Jews don't identify with preserving the west as European and that's more important to them....as they view Trump as a step backwards.

I agree with you that the Islamic world does itself no favours. That said we created that mess and then we blame the Muslims for reacting to it.

Not that what the Jews are doing to Palestinians is anything different to what the Muslims did to all religions all over the middle east. People forget or ignore the truth that the middle east use to contain massive Christian and other non Islamic populations and they were all forced/butchered out. It's not by accident that you have Islamic populations that are nearly a hundred percent Islamic.

Yet no one cried any tears for those people.....it still happens now but as it's not happening to the left's 'protected' group there's no real interest.

I think a good person deplores the murder of non combatants and should not be involved within helping any of that happen. If Israel want to go berserk in Palestine then we should turn to the foreign lobbies and hand them their money back.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
Not in a nuclear and chemical world they don't.

That's what I fear the future is within that region the way it's going.

I don't think we get the luxury of just letting them duke it out.....perhaps if we had never got involved in the first place but we are heavily implicated in this now.
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I think the u.s.a. are wetting themselves to Nuc Iran,the russians would leave Ukraine straight away.
 
beak said:
And cause Nuclear radiation on you own doorstep, I think not.
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Possibly so. Nuclear is not just ICBMs blitzing Kiev, but precision, small-scale bombing in isolated areas.

The relatively limited leak of radiation into Russian air could be an acceptable collateral cost if they feel they are genuinely up against it.
 
We should not be playing nuclear chicken over the Donbas.....a place most people weren't even aware of three years ago.

This war should have been negotiated years ago, and now it looks like Trump is required to finally end the gravy train.
 
silvertop said:
Possibly so. Nuclear is not just ICBMs blitzing Kiev, but precision, small-scale bombing in isolated areas.

The relatively limited leak of radiation into Russian air could be an acceptable collateral cost if they feel they are genuinely up against it.
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I don't think limited radiation sounds that good, Russians will kick off when kids are born with six eyes and four feet,very risky.
 
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