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Israel v Hamas

Stirlingsays said:
We should not be playing nuclear chicken over the Donbas.....a place most people weren't even aware of three years ago.

This war should have been negotiated years ago, and now it looks like Trump is required to finally end the gravy train.
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Unless someone ends him first,the world just needs a straight shooter😊.All Trump wants to do is give Putin all he wants and save dollars, not a smart plan.
 
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beak said:
Unless someone ends him first,the world just needs a straight shooter😊.All Trump wants to do is give Putin all he wants and save dollars, not a smart plan.
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Wow.

The US isn't obligated to pay for Ukraine's future. They are in huge and I mean huge debt.

If you want to fight for the Donbas Ukraine are accepting volunteers.

Personally I find that the lack of accountability for failure is why elites are emboldened onto vanity policies rather than finding the best solutions. Ukraine has been an utter failure that has worsened the world for everybody.

But apparently I'm meant to be more concerned over whether Putin gets a win or not.

Anyway there is a separate thread for Ukraine.
 
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Living In Hope said:
I agree with most of the recent comments. My sympathy was broadly with the Israelis, but what they are doing now is crazy. It's just stoking a situation which needs to be calmed down (however that might be achieved), and those of us in the West will undoubtedly become targets by association. Our nation's support for Israel needs to be conditional on their adherence to international law (ie no illegal settlements) and on responses which are not wildly disproportionate. To say their country is let down by Netanyahu is an understatement. But I guess it is easy for me to pronounce on this from the comfort of the Home Counties.
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Why is it that Israel is the only country in the world never allowed to retaliate? Or do it "proportionately"? There is no such thing, it's a war and in wars you fight to destroy the enemy. No other nation is expected to tone down military responses. Which non-binding international law about settlements are you referring to?
 
silvertop said:
Difficult to disagree with any of this.

I believe pro Israel is partly dictated by faith with Jews and many Christians believing Israelis have an actual God-given right to the Holy Land. Those people wield a lot of power, have unlimited resources and are relentless and unmovable.

For the average Joe it is significantly dictated by race. I am not raising a lazy argument of all white people being racist. It is more race perception which we all suffer from. Thus, white western governments well run and efficient. Brown eastern governments all inefficient and riddled with corruption and backwards theology. Some underlying truth, of course, but a lazy stereotype. The unfortunate side-effect is white Israel always being preferred over its brown neighbours.

Also 9/11 and the aftermath atrocities. A colossal own goal for Islam and a price Palestinians are now paying. If this was Timor or Kurdistan and we could see them as largely defenseless, innocent victims of a vengeful and brutal, superior power, any support for Israel would have vanished some time ago. However, those Palestinians. Are they really innocent? 9/11!?

All Israel needs to do is refer to Hamas and Hezbollah as "terrorists" and the money and guns keep flooding in. True, they don't do themselves any favours. Many behave like fanatic Jihadists and deserve to be labeled. After all, if they look like a duck, swim like a duck and quack like a duck, they're terrorist's. On the other hand, if they had a charismatic, secular leader who looked and acted like Che Guevara, the world would be wearing his t-shirt. But look at the current Hezbollah leader. Just another ranting cleric who immediately conjures images of Bin Laden and a world caliphate.

Since the events of 7th October, Israel have clearly been the bad guys in this. Even with colossal masking, information control and propaganda you can still clearly see that Israel's conduct has been illegal, widely disproportionate and amoral. They are wholly the aggressor and are waiting for retaliation to say: see, we told you they were terrorists. And our West will largely support them even if they don't wholly believe them.
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So much leftist claptrap, riddled with many anti-Semitic tropes.

The Jews are the indigenous peoples of the land of Israel with heritage going back 3,000 years. Who exactly are "those people... wielding power... resources?"

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and its success has nothing to do with race. You say "white Israel"? Last time I checked, the population was more "brown" than white.

You bring in a 9/11 conspiracy theory – seriously? Remind me who started October 7th?

Hamas and Hezbollah are proscribed terrorist organisations. I'm not sure if you agree or disagree?

"Since the events of 7th October..." You mean the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust? But the Jews are "the bad guys" for having the audacity to respond militarily! Explain to me how being proportionate works when fighting a war with the aim of winning? This is never labelled at any other country. If the Jews are "amoral" what does that make the Nazis who are still holding onto hostages? I think you need to check your own moral compass.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Wow.

The US isn't obligated to pay for Ukraine's future. They are in huge and I mean huge debt.

If you want to fight for the Donbas Ukraine are accepting volunteers.

Personally I find that the lack of accountability for failure is why elites are emboldened onto vanity policies rather than finding the best solutions. Ukraine has been an utter failure that has worsened the world for everybody.

But apparently I'm meant to be more concerned over whether Putin gets a win or not.

Anyway there is a separate thread for Ukraine.
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Without a Ukranian win democracy is finished.
 
beak said:
Without a Ukranian win democracy is finished.
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That is probably going a tad too far but the point is that we aren't supporting Ukraine because we are overly concerned about the Donbas region. We are worried about what would follow an easily achieved Russian success there. There will no doubt be a negotiated settlement at some time which Putin can hail as a victory at home, but which will actually have been painfully achieved, has expanded NATO and will have shown him where the red lines are.
 
Democracy, like any social/economic system, relies on the lower classes doing the poor work, to maintain the standards of the Elites.
You won't see any Elites, under any social system, fighting wars. That for the underclasses to do, to fight to maintain the people at the top.

In this war, the tens of thousands of civilians slaughtered, aren't even fighting.
 
beak said:
Without a Ukranian win democracy is finished.
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You mean like how Labour get a 33.7 percent share of the vote but a 63.2 percent of the seats?

Reform get 14.3 percent of the vote but 0.8 percent of the seats.

That kind of democracy?

Yeah, really worth fighting in the trenches for that one.
 

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Penge Eagle said:
Why is it that Israel is the only country in the world never allowed to retaliate? Or do it "proportionately"? There is no such thing, it's a war and in wars you fight to destroy the enemy. No other nation is expected to tone down military responses. Which non-binding international law about settlements are you referring to?
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Israel hasn't declared war as far as I'm aware.

It's dishonest of them just as it is of Russia but while some of its politicians get to talk in genocidal terms it hasn't officially declared.

It responded to a terrorist attack yet you state that it doesn't have to be proportionate?

If a country isn't proportionate in war then it gets to be a valid object of criticism. Chemical warfare wasn't used in WW2 but was in WW1. The reason for that was largely criticism of its use on both sides in WW1.

Also, a lack of proportionally would have led to the German people and state being destroyed after WW2 as some high up US presidential advisers argued for (people can look it up). In the event in and outside Germany something between 1-2 million Germans died due to persecution 1945-48.....something that is rarely mentioned nor known.

You seem to be arguing that we can't criticise a state at war because in your view anything goes. I feel that a lack of proportionally in war is exactly what leads to mass slaughter whoever is doing it.

Also I'd end by saying that inside Israel itself there is considerable criticism and protest.
 
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Penge Eagle said:
So much leftist claptrap, riddled with many anti-Semitic tropes.

The Jews are the indigenous peoples of the land of Israel with heritage going back 3,000 years. Who exactly are "those people... wielding power... resources?"

Israel is the only democracy in the Middle East and its success has nothing to do with race. You say "white Israel"? Last time I checked, the population was more "brown" than white.

You bring in a 9/11 conspiracy theory – seriously? Remind me who started October 7th?

Hamas and Hezbollah are proscribed terrorist organisations. I'm not sure if you agree or disagree?

"Since the events of 7th October..." You mean the largest massacre of Jews since the Holocaust? But the Jews are "the bad guys" for having the audacity to respond militarily! Explain to me how being proportionate works when fighting a war with the aim of winning? This is never labelled at any other country. If the Jews are "amoral" what does that make the Nazis who are still holding onto hostages? I think you need to check your own moral compass.
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I'd like to raise a respectful reply regarding a couple of points.

I can hardly be accused of favouring the Islamic cause, Islamic countries themselves nor their terrorists. When it comes to an argument of who would make best use of that land and would have the better society the Jews win everytime. However, in the spirit of fairness to the history I think I should comment on the following.

The first of which is focus on the term 'white Israel'. The left often attack Israel as a 'white European colonial project' which is a very particular way of looking at it. Because lots of Jews share European genetics, especially those who tend to political power we get this 'Jews are white' presentation of Israel.

The truth far more nuanced than that.

Jews are their own ethnic group and the extent to which those of them with European DNA identify with Europe differs with the individual. Obviously personally I favour the 'Mike Benzs' of this world far more favorably than the George Soros types (though the latter is the unfortunate majority).

However, to get back to the main point, the undeniable truth is that the vast majority of Jews living in Israel today were not living in the region circla 1882.....In fact the given statistic is that 99.7% of the world's Jews lived outside the region.

en.wikipedia.org

Aliyah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

This question of 'indigenous' rights to land is something I strongly agree with. However, surely that argument is best for those who never left the region. In this regard then the Palestinians of that region have the most rights to the land there. Yet many of them were displaced back in 1948 without the right to ever return and no one made this 'indigenous' rights argument then.
 
I can't understand Starmer urging Hamas to return the sausages to Israel, I didn't think Israel had any sausages and why would Hamas hold on to them when they can't eat them either. It must be holding up the cease frier.
 
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