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Israel v Hamas
- Topic starter Forest Hillbilly
- Start date
You’ve been backed into such a tight corner it’s the only response you have now.
Intellectually bereft position.
CPFCSaturn
Member
- Country
England
It's quite funny the tabloid trolls accuse others of bed-wetting while they are clearly floundering rather desperately.
Like I said, there finally seems to be some public acknowledgement that what Israel is doing in Gaza is miles beyond the pale, and many on here are still parroting the outdated lines which are a point of ridicule in most places.
This thread will make interesting reading in a year or two.
Seems to be quite a big overlap with the Trump supporters too. Unsurprising.
- Location
- Surrey
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England
Nobody with a basic understanding of warfare, the Middle East or international law believes that "Israel is bad, Palestinians good." But this is your level of analysis.
You bring up the classic anti-Israel/anti-Zionist/antisemitic trope about Israel's response being "proportional". NO OTHER nation gets this accusation when fighting a war. Only the Jews. You say Israel’s response "cannot be proportional." Based on what legal standard? What your mates think? Proportionality is not a contest on civilian death numbers.
You say "experts on genocide"? Which ones? South Africa’s case at the ICJ has not accused Israel of committing genocide, but of potentially failing to prevent it. An accusation doesn't automatically mean guilt.
Regarding the media issue, every military limits access to war zones including the UK and US. You say nothing about Hamas murdering or arresting Palestinian reporters. Funny how you don't hear too much about Hamas firing rockets from hospitals because most local reporters risk death.
You say "you cannot surely be comfortable" with what’s happening. I'm not! You seem to think that just being upset at dead civilians makes your opinion valid. "Right side of history" – you're just loudly guessing and offering no insight.
CPFCSaturn
Member
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England
Expecting Israel to uphold international law is now CLASSIC antisemitism!? I can't keep up.
georgenorman
Member
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England
Yes, the anti-Israel apologists for Hamas talk a lot about 'proportional'. I have not seen one of them postings what they think would be a proportional response.
Jesus. No point beyond that. How on earth you garner that from I have posted is utterly beyond me.
This is absolutely nothing to do with Jewish people. Israel and the Jewish faith are not the same thing. Trying to conflate the two and wholesale accuse anyone of anti-semitism over this matter is lazy, offensive and a shield for the justification for what is happening and you should be ashamed of yourself.
It’s not anti-Israel. It’s anti-Israeli government policy.
So there’s absolutely nothing inbetween what they are doing now and nothing?
georgenorman
Member
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England
As I said, none of the critics of the democratic Israeli government have stated what a 'proportional' response would be.
Tony Blair’s Labour were a democratic government too. Support what they did in Iraq? Nonsense point.
If we had all the answers George we would have solved this crisis years ago. What we do know is that tens of thousands of civilians have been killed, the Israeli government have been withholding aid and restricting access for people to really see what is going on, and untold numbers of people are suffering. There has to be a better way than this.
And apparently we’re raging anti-semites for thinking so.
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England
No, shutting down honest discussion is saying "if you don't agree with my outrage then you don't care about the massacres".
I keep saying this – the number of civilian deaths does not define guilt. The difference in deaths is because Israel spends billions protecting its citizens with the Iron Dome, bunkers etc. Hamas embeds itself in civilian areas and won't protect its people in their tunnel network. Blaming Israel for not letting its civilians die easily is pretty sick.
Hamas deliberately targets civilians, whereas Israel targets Hamas which unfortunately results in civilian deaths. This is a horrible, dirty war.
"Why should I be more outraged by Hamas?" – because they started it, and they want it to continue. Hamas are bad but not as deadly, is not a moral argument.
You're the one holding up the terrorists as a moral barometer. Your posts are about who is better or worse than Hamas.
It's about who started the war knowing their civilians would die. You think Israel are the bad guys and not the side that banks on civilian deaths. I don't think you can preach about morality.
For those justifying what is going on, what is the end game? How and when does it end?
When Hamas is ‘eradicated’? How will anyone know when that has actually been achieved? And even if it is, what happens to the remaining Palestinians that have been displaced and seen their homes destroyed and lost most of their family members? Do you not think those people would just want to create another iteration of some sort of Hamas organisation?
When Hamas is ‘eradicated’? How will anyone know when that has actually been achieved? And even if it is, what happens to the remaining Palestinians that have been displaced and seen their homes destroyed and lost most of their family members? Do you not think those people would just want to create another iteration of some sort of Hamas organisation?
eaglesdare
Member
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England
Israel has supported aid distributions and helped distribute aid through secure sites in gaza delivering truckloads of food to civilians.
Hamas has warned Gaza residents against using the aid. By warning starving people from accessing food and supplies they exacerbate the crisis while falsely accusing Israel of weaponising the aid.
Hamas has warned Gaza residents against using the aid. By warning starving people from accessing food and supplies they exacerbate the crisis while falsely accusing Israel of weaponising the aid.
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England
Spare me the outrage and moral superiority. I guess that's much easier than responding to my points that totally debunked yours!
No one claimed that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That’s a straw man! Criticism of Israel isn't inherently antisemitic. But to deny a very specific pattern of argument surrounding Israel (I referred to the 'proportionality' line that only they get) often does result in antisemitic tropes, whether intentionally or not. To deny this is intellectual cowardice.
georgenorman
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England
I certainly didn't shed any tears when the fascist, Saddam Hussein, was overthrown. Yet again, no critic of the democratic, pro-Western Israeli-government is able to actually say what their 'proportional', "better way" is.
Well you completely misrepresent what I’ve said and are never going to change your position so it’s pointless.
Israel will keep getting carte Blanche to carry on doing what they’re doing as it’s only the US that can stop them. And Trump won’t do that. So enjoy watching the rest of what happens over there.
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England
I understand your frustration, but I think it’s important not to shut down dialogue by assuming bad faith. Saying I "completely misrepresent" your point without engaging with what I’ve actually said doesn’t move the conversation forward even if we disagree.
International pressure, protests and a new US government can get Israel to change course on policy (rightly or wrongly).
Stirlingsays
Member
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England
Israel's position or more accurately most of the Israel's cabinet's position is to rid themselves of the Palestinians. They will use coded language in polite company and more realistic language amongst themselves but actions always talk louder than words and personally I think that's undeniable.
In terms of practical realities, I don't think Israel survives long term in a two state situation.....they would get demographically beaten at some point in the future....even from within their own country and then it's no longer actually a Jewish state....much as Britain will eventually no longer be an Anglo Saxon country. Does that mean that we can defend what is being done now morally? Not for me, but then again I'm not the one currently engaged in a war. So this is for the Jews and Arabs.
Being it is a foreign war and regardless of how connected individuals may feel towards it what's important nationally (well for us, not so much Israel...outside of the close intelligence ties) is this country's personal position in relation to it.
For me, it's important to separate Judaism and Jews from Zionism.....or at least this form of Zionism because Zionism is just Jewish nationalism and I'm not necessarily against that once you accept 1948...which isn't the same as saying what happened then as just. Also it's true that being a Zionist doesn't mean you automatically agree with old Netty's tactics.
I don't think this separation between Jews and Zionism always gets done and thus you can see some aggressive discourse, when really it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks about it. It should be noted that it's usually Jewish figures in the media themselves who are the most vocal against Netty's land grab tactics.
For me, it's much more important what happens to Jews in this country.....Jews have an existence here that goes back to long before the Normans and while you get the overly religious types who don't integrate much they also never seem to cause trouble. Also, Jews have contributed much to all factors of life in Britain (leaving double agent traitors like Robert Maxwell aside) and they have done this without trying to separate themselves out....Indeed, many people don't even know that Peter Sellars was Jewish, Lionel Blair, Bernard Bresslaw, Sid James because....at the time....it wasn't something to divide them from their peers. And that was a better world.
This doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, the same kind of situation that saw Robert Maxwell buried in Israel instead of England is a valid observation as is this 'minority' mindset which sees the majority of Jews voting left wing and being chronic globalists.
I'm against the concept of 'protected classes', which the Blair government introduced into law and the Conservatives ended up supporting.....whole heartedly I might add, because let's not forget that the Tories didn't invent woke.....but they became the face of woke, just as much as the left and pushed it hard and had the gall to lie about it to their supporters as they passed the laws. The Tories are the Tories until they remove the whip from figures like Theresa May.
But in the case of Jews in Britain I most definitely think they need protection....in many cases against what the majority of them voted for......which is an imported population that contains a fair percent who wish them harm or gone.....Instead of this it's their opponents who gain most of the protection because it's a Labour voting block.
In terms of practical realities, I don't think Israel survives long term in a two state situation.....they would get demographically beaten at some point in the future....even from within their own country and then it's no longer actually a Jewish state....much as Britain will eventually no longer be an Anglo Saxon country. Does that mean that we can defend what is being done now morally? Not for me, but then again I'm not the one currently engaged in a war. So this is for the Jews and Arabs.
Being it is a foreign war and regardless of how connected individuals may feel towards it what's important nationally (well for us, not so much Israel...outside of the close intelligence ties) is this country's personal position in relation to it.
For me, it's important to separate Judaism and Jews from Zionism.....or at least this form of Zionism because Zionism is just Jewish nationalism and I'm not necessarily against that once you accept 1948...which isn't the same as saying what happened then as just. Also it's true that being a Zionist doesn't mean you automatically agree with old Netty's tactics.
I don't think this separation between Jews and Zionism always gets done and thus you can see some aggressive discourse, when really it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks about it. It should be noted that it's usually Jewish figures in the media themselves who are the most vocal against Netty's land grab tactics.
For me, it's much more important what happens to Jews in this country.....Jews have an existence here that goes back to long before the Normans and while you get the overly religious types who don't integrate much they also never seem to cause trouble. Also, Jews have contributed much to all factors of life in Britain (leaving double agent traitors like Robert Maxwell aside) and they have done this without trying to separate themselves out....Indeed, many people don't even know that Peter Sellars was Jewish, Lionel Blair, Bernard Bresslaw, Sid James because....at the time....it wasn't something to divide them from their peers. And that was a better world.
This doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, the same kind of situation that saw Robert Maxwell buried in Israel instead of England is a valid observation as is this 'minority' mindset which sees the majority of Jews voting left wing and being chronic globalists.
I'm against the concept of 'protected classes', which the Blair government introduced into law and the Conservatives ended up supporting.....whole heartedly I might add, because let's not forget that the Tories didn't invent woke.....but they became the face of woke, just as much as the left and pushed it hard and had the gall to lie about it to their supporters as they passed the laws. The Tories are the Tories until they remove the whip from figures like Theresa May.
But in the case of Jews in Britain I most definitely think they need protection....in many cases against what the majority of them voted for......which is an imported population that contains a fair percent who wish them harm or gone.....Instead of this it's their opponents who gain most of the protection because it's a Labour voting block.
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CPFCSaturn
Member
- Country
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England
Sure, both can be examples of shutting down discussion, but also there are evidently plenty on this thread who don't give a single s*** about Arab/Muslim deaths, in my opinion.
I don't think you are one of those, and I will credit you for continuing to at least engage with the topic, unlike the tabloid trolls.
I agree the difference in deaths is a consequence of Israel's vastly superior economy and military, but I don't really understand what that proves. Hamas firing rockets at Israel is relatively minor in the context of what is being fired the other way. Israel are perfectly capable of enforcing their borders and protecting their citizens without the need to kill tens of thousands of civilians.
I don't agree that Israel only targets Hamas, and I would go as far as to say I think that is demonstrably untrue - far too many examples of sniped civilians, blown up ambulances and dead journalists for that to be credible.
I don't at all agree with the framing that Hamas 'started it' - this didn't begin on October 7th.
Can you explain how I am holding up Hamas as a moral barometer? My expectation is simply that the IDF holds itself to a higher standard than a prescribed terrorists organisation. You continue to rebut criticisms of the IDF by highlighting what Hamas do instead - I don't understand this point. The IDF are not forced to lower themselves to behaving like a terrorist organisation just because they are in a conflict with one.
I am very confident in my morality thank you.