Israel v Hamas

[Stirlingsays]

Both points seem to focus on what other people do or don't do, which is not really anything I am concerned with - whether neighbouring countries take them or not, whether other Muslims hate the west or whether some people have double standards does nothing to change my disgust at what is going on.

I think the vast majority of people on the planet are guilty of double standards and hypocrisy in some form or another - I don't think either end of the political spectrum has a monopoly on that.

That's fair enough, but there's a lot of 'disgust' at one particular event in the world when there was always a large amount of disgust at other happenings around the world that aren't focused on.....Some I mentioned.

Personally I do think the left have a near monopoly on double standards as the right are pretty clear in their view that charity begins at home and that we focus more on ourselves than what horrors other parts of the world partake in.....Those days are gone, we are vastly reduced.

The left moved heaven and earth to destroy the British Empire and our influence and power in the world and alongside chosen external events they succeeded more than fifty years ago and now they have the position where we have zero say in what happens anywhere but here.....All while they foam at the mouth at the works of others.

Perhaps you should feel more disgust at those who made the British impotent.

 

[Stirlingsays]

'Zionism as an ideology is a threat to humanity as a whole'

Dr. Azzam Tamini at the Gaza Tribunal.

The language Israel are using with this final Nakba is very reminiscient of the third reich.

'expansion and reinforcement of the eastern axis of the state of Israel', what does that remind you of.

The US and UK are a disgrace.

What do you expect blighty to do about it?

We have already involved ourselves in Ukraine's war and have higher energy prices as a result.

Are we to stick two fingers up to the US as well.....end up lumped in with the EU's trade deal?

Why do we have to be involved in any of it.......Just be like India and say, you lot get on with it. This is the power level the left wanted for us and now they have it.

 

[eaglesdare]

Israel-Gaza latest: Netanyahu reportedly accepts US Gaza ceasefire plan - but Hamas 'disappointed'

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accepted a new ceasefire plan proposed by US envoy Steve Witkoff, according to the country's media. However, Hamas reportedly is likely to reject the proposals. Follow the latest, and listen to The World podcast as you scroll, below.

news.sky.com

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accepted a new ceasefire plan proposed by US envoy Steve Witkoff, according to the country's media. However, Hamas reportedly is likely to reject the proposals."

 

[cryrst]

If as some state in here Israel wanting to move the whole population out of Palestine why are the neighbouring Muslim countries not offering the Palestinians safety. Israel are the only non Muslim country in the region. Where is the sympathy from like minded communities and not many of those are categorising this as genocide weirdly ! Maybe the Palestinians are bad news bears.

 

[eaglesdare]

If as some state in here Israel wanting to move the whole population out of Palestine why are the neighbouring Muslim countries not offering the Palestinians safety. Israel are the only non Muslim country in the region. Where is the sympathy from like minded communities and not many of those are categorising this as genocide weirdly ! Maybe the Palestinians are bad news bears.

The only nations stupid enough to take them are the UK and EU countries.

Egypt have a armed border and shoot anyone who tries get cross it.

 

[ASCPFC]

If as some state in here Israel wanting to move the whole population out of Palestine why are the neighbouring Muslim countries not offering the Palestinians safety. Israel are the only non Muslim country in the region. Where is the sympathy from like minded communities and not many of those are categorising this as genocide weirdly ! Maybe the Palestinians are bad news bears.

I think people have to consider what Arab countries can gain by keeping Palestinians as victims of Israeli and US aggression. If they are saved, who can they then blame for all the ills of their own making? They have a constant scapegoat which also means the most radical will stir up trouble abroad, in Western countries, rather than consider an uprising against their own state

 

[Penge Eagle]

Sure, both can be examples of shutting down discussion, but also there are evidently plenty on this thread who don't give a single s*** about Arab/Muslim deaths, in my opinion.

I don't think you are one of those, and I will credit you for continuing to at least engage with the topic, unlike the tabloid trolls.

I agree the difference in deaths is a consequence of Israel's vastly superior economy and military, but I don't really understand what that proves. Hamas firing rockets at Israel is relatively minor in the context of what is being fired the other way. Israel are perfectly capable of enforcing their borders and protecting their citizens without the need to kill tens of thousands of civilians.

I don't agree that Israel only targets Hamas, and I would go as far as to say I think that is demonstrably untrue - far too many examples of sniped civilians, blown up ambulances and dead journalists for that to be credible.

I don't at all agree with the framing that Hamas 'started it' - this didn't begin on October 7th.

Can you explain how I am holding up Hamas as a moral barometer? My expectation is simply that the IDF holds itself to a higher standard than a prescribed terrorists organisation. You continue to rebut criticisms of the IDF by highlighting what Hamas do instead - I don't understand this point. The IDF are not forced to lower themselves to behaving like a terrorist organisation just because they are in a conflict with one.

I am very confident in my morality thank you.

I don't agree with your moral superiority and anyone who disagrees are inhumane. If you really care about Arab deaths, then you should hold Hamas accountable for starting wars they know will kill civilians.

"Hamas firing rockets at Israel is relatively minor in the context of what is being fired the other way." Do you seriously think the IDF should reduce the number of its strikes to match the failure rate of the enemy?

You don't ask if ambulances were being used to transport fighters, which has been documented or if journalists were working with Hamas, which has also been reported. There is no evidence of the IDF randomly sniping civilians.

Yes it didn't all begin on October 7, but that was the turning point. Yes it goes back decades, but so do most wars. This is irrelevant to the morality of the response.

You're not holding Israel to a higher standard, you're holding them to an unreachable standard. No military has conducted urban warfare without civilian deaths.

You are not overtly pro-Hamas but consistently minimise their actions while magnifying Israel's. Hamas would be very happy that you: Deflect attention from October 7; Have Israel as the main aggressor; Ignore Hamas' human shields; Criticise the IDF's response without any military context.

 

[DanH]

Really does feel like a lot of people have woken up in the last couple of weeks.

'Criminal gang headed by Netanyahu committing war crimes in Gaza': Israel former PM Ehud Olmert

Ehud Olmert said Netanyahu was waging war "without goals, clear planning and with no chances of success”

www.theweek.in

 

[Penge Eagle]

I think most rational people would want HAMAS eliminated. Carpet bombing an entire civilian population, then starving them to death by blocking Aid, might be considered clumsy, at best.

Just thinking with all this IT and intelligence and super-accurate weaponry, that maybe, just maybe, there might have been more precision about destroying HAMAS,....oh, and releasing the hostages.

If you actually believe Israel is "carpet bombing" Gaza, then you either don't know what carpet bombing means, or you're deliberately lying for effect.

Re the propaganda line about Israel "starving" Gaza, you parrot. When aid gets through, it’s Hamas that hoards it, sells it, or uses it to keep their military operations running. The IDF has facilitated hundreds of aid trucks while under fire.

"With all this tech, shouldn’t they be more precise?" – this is a child’s view of warfare. No technology can remove a terrorist buried under a city of 2 million people. It's cowardice to point the finger at Israel and stay silent about the Jihadi atrocities. Why don't you drop the act about wanting Hamas destroyed and admit you don't care who dies so you can blame Israel.

 

[DanH]

If you actually believe Israel is "carpet bombing" Gaza, then you either don't know what carpet bombing means, or you're deliberately lying for effect.

Re the propaganda line about Israel "starving" Gaza, you parrot. When aid gets through, it’s Hamas that hoards it, sells it, or uses it to keep their military operations running. The IDF has facilitated hundreds of aid trucks while under fire.

"With all this tech, shouldn’t they be more precise?" – this is a child’s view of warfare. No technology can remove a terrorist buried under a city of 2 million people. It's cowardice to point the finger at Israel and stay silent about the Jihadi atrocities. Why don't you drop the act about wanting Hamas destroyed and admit you don't care who dies so you can blame Israel.

You accuse others of parroting Hamas propaganda and ‘tropes’ yet you yourself post something like this without any back up, and is just what the IDF/Netanyahu government are claiming.

There are very different stories coming from doctors and aid agencies trying to help.

 

[We won the cup!]

Just give the Palestinians back their land and resettle the Izraelis in Louisiana where they will be welcomed with open arms and start paying back the money from all the years of funding , safety and self esteem from poncing, win win! I for one hope we stop giving our tax payers cash in to this kid frying, starvation loving regime! Let the war crimes trials begin, perhaps Nuremberg is free? Shalom!

 

[Penge Eagle]

You accuse others of parroting Hamas propaganda and ‘tropes’ yet you yourself post something like this without any back up, and is just what the IDF/Netanyahu government are claiming.

There are very different stories coming from doctors and aid agencies trying to help.

To clarify, I do think Israel can be criticised in this regard through their extreme border controls and blockades. You are correct about the aid agency concerns. If this is proven, then I would condemn the government unreservedly. However, his framing was that Israel is intentionally starving Gazans as a policy and that fact is contested.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Just give the Palestinians back their land and resettle the Izraelis in Louisiana where they will be welcomed with open arms and start paying back the money from all the years of funding , safety and self esteem from poncing, win win! I for one hope we stop giving our tax payers cash in to this kid frying, starvation loving regime! Let the war crimes trials begin, perhaps Nuremberg is free? Shalom!

15 minutes without a reply. You must be plotzing.

 

[We won the cup!]

Israel-Gaza latest: Netanyahu reportedly accepts US Gaza ceasefire plan - but Hamas 'disappointed'

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accepted a new ceasefire plan proposed by US envoy Steve Witkoff, according to the country's media. However, Hamas reportedly is likely to reject the proposals. Follow the latest, and listen to The World podcast as you scroll, below.

news.sky.com

"Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has accepted a new ceasefire plan proposed by US envoy Steve Witkoff, according to the country's media. However, Hamas reportedly is likely to reject the proposals."

Its a bit like Tottenhams Daniel Levy offering us £20 million for Eze, shall we slate Steve Parish if he rejects it? Maybe Izrael need to offer more shekels!

 

[eaglesdare]

Its a bit like Tottenhams Daniel Levy offering us £20 million for Eze, shall we slate Steve Parish if he rejects it? Maybe Izrael need to offer more shekels!

What?

 

[ASCPFC]

Its a bit like Tottenhams Daniel Levy offering us £20 million for Eze, shall we slate Steve Parish if he rejects it? Maybe Izrael need to offer more shekels!

Surely you're fundraising?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

To clarify, I do think Israel can be criticised in this regard through their extreme border controls and blockades. You are correct about the aid agency concerns. If this is proven, then I would condemn the government unreservedly. However, his framing was that Israel is intentionally starving Gazans as a policy and that fact is contested.

Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich:

"The bare minimum will reach the population - simply so the world doesn't stop us and accuse us of war crimes."

"What will enter in the coming days is very little: a few bakeries distributing pita bread to people, and public kitchens providing one daily serving of cooked food."

Civilians, he says, will receive one pita and a plate of food - "that's it".


How can something they admit to be contested?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

That's fair enough, but there's a lot of 'disgust' at one particular event in the world when there was always a large amount of disgust at other happenings around the world that aren't focused on.....Some I mentioned.

Personally I do think the left have a near monopoly on double standards as the right are pretty clear in their view that charity begins at home and that we focus more on ourselves than what horrors other parts of the world partake in.....Those days are gone, we are vastly reduced.

The left moved heaven and earth to destroy the British Empire and our influence and power in the world and alongside chosen external events they succeeded more than fifty years ago and now they have the position where we have zero say in what happens anywhere but here.....All while they foam at the mouth at the works of others.

Perhaps you should feel more disgust at those who made the British impotent.

Sure, people champion different causes throughout their life, and pretty much everyone can be accused of ignoring other causes - we are all hypocrites in that regard.

Any suggestion that double standards only exist amongst people you disagree with is just projecting your own bias.

If you want a really obvious example of double standards on the right, go and read the thread about the lunatic who mowed down dozens of people in Liverpool and contrast that with people's reaction to a non-white person doing something similar - to be very clear, I am not looking to turn this into a broad left vs right exchange, nor indeed get into why this guy in Liverpool is so much more deserving of sympathy than other violent lunatics - it's just a very recent example of double standards I am referencing.

Another example would be how you can make similar observations to left-leaning posters about Israel's actions without a barrage of accusations that you hate Jews and love terrorists - the posters who engage in that behaviour all seem to go very quiet when you share your view.

Everyone has bias, everyone can be hypocritical and everyone will have exhibited double standards in their life - it's silly to suggest these are traits of the left.

 

[ASCPFC]

Israel's Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich:

"The bare minimum will reach the population - simply so the world doesn't stop us and accuse us of war crimes."

"What will enter in the coming days is very little: a few bakeries distributing pita bread to people, and public kitchens providing one daily serving of cooked food."

Civilians, he says, will receive one pita and a plate of food - "that's it".


How can something they admit to be contested?

What is described there is not starvation. I think anyone can see that. It might not be wonderful but clearly enough to live on.

What would bother me is that Hamas will have cross border tunnels to supply themselves. So any rationing or starvation policy would be quite pointless.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I don't agree with your moral superiority and anyone who disagrees are inhumane. If you really care about Arab deaths, then you should hold Hamas accountable for starting wars they know will kill civilians.

"Hamas firing rockets at Israel is relatively minor in the context of what is being fired the other way." Do you seriously think the IDF should reduce the number of its strikes to match the failure rate of the enemy?

You don't ask if ambulances were being used to transport fighters, which has been documented or if journalists were working with Hamas, which has also been reported. There is no evidence of the IDF randomly sniping civilians.

Yes it didn't all begin on October 7, but that was the turning point. Yes it goes back decades, but so do most wars. This is irrelevant to the morality of the response.

You're not holding Israel to a higher standard, you're holding them to an unreachable standard. No military has conducted urban warfare without civilian deaths.

You are not overtly pro-Hamas but consistently minimise their actions while magnifying Israel's. Hamas would be very happy that you: Deflect attention from October 7; Have Israel as the main aggressor; Ignore Hamas' human shields; Criticise the IDF's response without any military context.

I think it's reasonable to question the humanity of anyone still supportive of Israel's actions, yes.

What do you mean 'hold Hamas accountable'?

Lets take the example where the IDF claimed the ambulances were acting suspiciously and that's why they had to blow them all up and bury them in a mass grave, only for video footage to emerge showing that to be a complete lie. But of course, that was just a one-off and they happened to get caught. Every other time the ambulances must be transporting fighters or off to blow something up.

There is considerable evidence of the IDF sniping civilians, including children - there are a huge volume of reports from medical professionals, aid organisations and journalists all making the same claims. Obviously when you reject information from anybody except the IDF, it's easy to conclude there is no evidence.

Not once have I suggested that there should be no civilians deaths or that is the standard I expect of Israel - that's a complete strawman.