Israel v Hamas

[georgenorman]

Israel's position or more accurately most of the Israel's cabinet's position is to rid themselves of the Palestinians. They will use coded language in polite company and more realistic language amongst themselves but actions always talk louder than words and personally I think that's undeniable.

In terms of practical realities, I don't think Israel survives long term in a two state situation.....they would get demographically beaten at some point in the future....even from within their own country and then it's no longer actually a Jewish state....much as Britain will eventually no longer be an Anglo Saxon country. Does that mean that we can defend what is being done now morally? Not for me, but then again I'm not the one currently engaged in a war. So this is for the Jews and Arabs.

Being is a foreign war and regardless of how connected individuals may feel towards it what's important nationally (well for us, not so much Israel...outside of the close intelligence ties) is this country's personal position in relation to it.

For me, it's important to separate Judaism and Jews from Zionism.....or at least this form of Zionism because Zionism is just Jewish nationalism and I'm not necessarily against that once you accept 1948...which isn't the same as saying what happened then as just. Also it's true that being a Zionist doesn't mean you automatically agree with old Netty's tactics.

I don't think this separation between Jews and Zionism always gets done and thus you can see some aggressive discourse, when really it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks about it. It should be noted that it's usually Jewish figures in the media themselves who are the most vocal against Netty's land grab tactics.

For me, it's much more important what happens to Jews in this country.....Jews have an existence here that goes back to long before the Normans and while you get the overly religious types who don't integrate much they also never seem to cause trouble. Also, Jews have contributed much to all factors of life in Britain (leaving double agent traitors like Robert Maxwell aside) and they have done this without trying to separate themselves out....Indeed, many people don't even know that Peter Sellars was Jewish, Lionel Blair, Bernard Bresslaw, Sid James because....at the time....it wasn't something to divide them from their peers. And that was a better world.

This doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, the same kind of situation that saw Robert Maxwell buried in Israel instead of England is a valid observation as is this 'minority' mindset which sees the majority of Jews voting left wing and being chronic globalists.

I'm against the concept of 'protected classes', which the Blair government introduced into law and the Conservatives ended up supporting.....whole heartedly I might add, because let's not forget that the Tories didn't invent woke.....but they became the face of woke, just as much as the left and pushed it hard and had the gall to lie about it to their supporters as they passed the laws. The Tories are the Tories until they remove the whip from figures like Theresa May.

But in the case of Jews in Britain I most definitely think they need protection....in many cases against what the majority of them voted for......which is an imported population that contains a fair percent who wish them harm or gone.....Instead of this it's their opponents who gain most of the protection because it's a Labour voting block.

Intelligent, thoughtful post - excellent.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Spare me the outrage and moral superiority. I guess that's much easier than responding to my points that totally debunked yours!

No one claimed that all criticism of Israel is antisemitic. That’s a straw man! Criticism of Israel isn't inherently antisemitic. But to deny a very specific pattern of argument surrounding Israel (I referred to the 'proportionality' line that only they get) often does result in antisemitic tropes, whether intentionally or not. To deny this is intellectual cowardice.

That's not true though, is it?

Every Western nation which engages in offensive action in other countries has been criticised, protested against and sometimes even sanctioned for breaches of their commitment to international law. See the British in Iraq, the US in Afghanistan, the British in Northern Ireland.

People criticising militaries for being over-zealous in their conduct is a tale as old as time - I think suggesting that people doing it on this occasion must only be doing it due to a hatred of Jews is an argument made in incredibly poor faith.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Sure, both can be examples of shutting down discussion, but also there are evidently plenty on this thread who don't give a single s*** about Arab/Muslim deaths, in my opinion.

Why should people in Britain give a 'single s***' about Arab/Muslim deaths in foreign lands?

Have you noted a 'single s***' from the Arab/Muslim community about say Christian deaths and persecution in Africa or in the middle east? Indeed, it's noted that more from that community joined ISIS than the British Army during that whole period years back....despite gaslighting media campaigns to get them to join the Army.

Or indeed closer to home (excepting one or two voices who themselves get persecuted from with the British Islamic community) do you see an equivalent giving of a 'single s***' about the rape gangs?....Indeed the overwhelming response has been one of denial, protection and silence.

The majority of the Islamic world see and express themselves as 'them and us', yet apparently no one else is allowed to without criticism.

Can you not be accused of double standards, where you expect more from white western communities than you do from non white communities? Personally I see a huge amount of that from the left.....It's a kind of part ethnicity (because most social liberals are white) but mostly class assumption of moral supremacy.

 

[DanH]

Israel's position or more accurately most of the Israel's cabinet's position is to rid themselves of the Palestinians. They will use coded language in polite company and more realistic language amongst themselves but actions always talk louder than words and personally I think that's undeniable.

In terms of practical realities, I don't think Israel survives long term in a two state situation.....they would get demographically beaten at some point in the future....even from within their own country and then it's no longer actually a Jewish state....much as Britain will eventually no longer be an Anglo Saxon country. Does that mean that we can defend what is being done now morally? Not for me, but then again I'm not the one currently engaged in a war. So this is for the Jews and Arabs.

Being is a foreign war and regardless of how connected individuals may feel towards it what's important nationally (well for us, not so much Israel...outside of the close intelligence ties) is this country's personal position in relation to it.

For me, it's important to separate Judaism and Jews from Zionism.....or at least this form of Zionism because Zionism is just Jewish nationalism and I'm not necessarily against that once you accept 1948...which isn't the same as saying what happened then as just. Also it's true that being a Zionist doesn't mean you automatically agree with old Netty's tactics.

I don't think this separation between Jews and Zionism always gets done and thus you can see some aggressive discourse, when really it doesn't matter what anyone here thinks about it. It should be noted that it's usually Jewish figures in the media themselves who are the most vocal against Netty's land grab tactics.

For me, it's much more important what happens to Jews in this country.....Jews have an existence here that goes back to long before the Normans and while you get the overly religious types who don't integrate much they also never seem to cause trouble. Also, Jews have contributed much to all factors of life in Britain (leaving double agent traitors like Robert Maxwell aside) and they have done this without trying to separate themselves out....Indeed, many people don't even know that Peter Sellars was Jewish, Lionel Blair, Bernard Bresslaw, Sid James because....at the time....it wasn't something to divide them from their peers. And that was a better world.

This doesn't mean I don't have criticisms, the same kind of situation that saw Robert Maxwell buried in Israel instead of England is a valid observation as is this 'minority' mindset which sees the majority of Jews voting left wing and being chronic globalists.

I'm against the concept of 'protected classes', which the Blair government introduced into law and the Conservatives ended up supporting.....whole heartedly I might add, because let's not forget that the Tories didn't invent woke.....but they became the face of woke, just as much as the left and pushed it hard and had the gall to lie about it to their supporters as they passed the laws. The Tories are the Tories until they remove the whip from figures like Theresa May.

But in the case of Jews in Britain I most definitely think they need protection....in many cases against what the majority of them voted for......which is an imported population that contains a fair percent who wish them harm or gone.....Instead of this it's their opponents who gain most of the protection because it's a Labour voting block.

I give you a lot of stick on here, so I only fair I give you some credit for an excellent post here 🙂

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Why should people in Britain give a 'single s***' about Arab/Muslim deaths in foreign lands?

Have you noted a 'single s***' from the Arab/Muslim community about say Christian deaths and persecution in Africa or in the middle east? Indeed, it's noted that more from that community joined ISIS than the British Army during that whole period....despite gaslighting media campaigns to get them to join the Army.

Or indeed closer to home (excepting one or two voices who themselves get persecuted from with the British Islamic community) a giving of a 'single s***' about the rape gangs?....Indeed the overwhelming response has been one of denial, protection and silence.

The majority of the Islamic see and express themselves as 'them and us', yet apparently no one else is allowed to without criticism.

Can you not be accused of double standards, where you expect more from white western communities than you do from non white communities? Personally I see a huge amount of that from the left.....It's a kind of part ethnicity (because most social liberals are white) but mostly class assumption of moral supremacy.

Because they are human beings, obviously.

No, I don't think so - if I was on a forum with a group of Muslims expressing their indifference at the rape gangs, I would also be criticising them.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Because they are human beings, obviously.

Yes, they are human beings and the moral case for their protection is there.

But no one's pulling them out are they? No Arab country is willing to take them and no one is willing to pay for it nor risk their lives going in there.

No, I don't think so - if I was on a forum with a group of Muslims expressing their indifference at the rape gangs, I would also be criticising them.

I think in your case that's probably true.

But honestly....How much does that happen? It doesn't....the double standard accusation stands true as an observation on the left, even if individuals like yourself aren't sullied by it.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I'm of the view that a realistic approach needs to be taken in Gaza, just as it needs to be in Ukraine.

As most knew was going to happen Netty's government and military have made Gaza unlivable for a large population and they aren't going to let them rebuild.....You would need the opposition in charge in Israel for that.

The time to have stopped Israel was in October/November and that didn't happen so now.....what was predicted to happen has happened.....and you have a starving people in Gaza who needs rescue.

There needs to be a resettlement plan in Egypt that the US/Israel/UN pay for.....but currently it's not happening because the Arabs and everyone else would rather see them starve than take responsibility for them.

 

[ASCPFC]

I'm of the view that a realistic approach needs to be taken in Gaza, just as it needs to be in Ukraine.

As most knew was going to happen Netty's government and military have made Gaza unlivable for a large population and they aren't going to let them rebuild.....You would need the opposition in charge in Israel for that.

The time to have stopped Israel was in October/November and that didn't happen so now.....what was predicted to happen has happened.....and you have a starving people in Gaza who needs rescue.

There needs to be a resettlement plan in Egypt that the US/Israel/UN pay for.....but currently it's not happening because the Arabs and everyone else would rather see them starve than take responsibility for them.

I think that they reckon they can gradually siphon them all off into Europe. Without paying anything, I suspect. I've met loads already, they present as Jordanian.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Yes, they are human beings and the moral case for their protection is there.

But no one's pulling them out are they? No Arab country is willing to take them and no one is willing to pay for it nor risk their lives going in there.



I think in your case that's probably true.

But honestly....How much does that happen? It doesn't....the double standard accusation stands true as an observation on the left, even if individuals like yourself aren't sullied by it.

Both points seem to focus on what other people do or don't do, which is not really anything I am concerned with - whether neighbouring countries take them or not, whether other Muslims hate the west or whether some people have double standards does nothing to change my disgust at what is going on.

I think the vast majority of people on the planet are guilty of double standards and hypocrisy in some form or another - I don't think either end of the political spectrum has a monopoly on that.

 

[eaglesdare]

I think the movie "Don't mess with the Zohan" sums it all up nicely.

 

[HKOwen]

I understand your frustration, but I think it’s important not to shut down dialogue by assuming bad faith. Saying I "completely misrepresent" your point without engaging with what I’ve actually said doesn’t move the conversation forward even if we disagree.

International pressure, protests and a new US government can get Israel to change course on policy (rightly or wrongly).

Congrats, you have passed the CPFC Saturn non tabloid troll smell test.

The self assumed moral superiority and hubris of claiming to care more than others about death is risible.

The Dan H point that if Hamas is eradicated then another iteration would emerge is saying that Palestinians will continue to pursue the destruction of the State of Israel by whatever means or name they have to hand.

I don't subscribe to that, I think if the Palestinian true civilians could live normal and safe lives they would, the big if is that there would nned to be some kind of de-radicalisation program that worked.
Stop teaching kids that killing Israelis is a duty and a good thing etc.

Israel would be pleased to have a peaceful Gaza as a source of workers and not firing missiles .

Win - win, unless you think there is no win for Gaza if Israel exists.

Military defence is expensive, Israel would be delighted to save the money Gaza costs and would likely invest into Gaza, with peace the radical extremists in Israeli politics lose their traction.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I'm of the view that a realistic approach needs to be taken in Gaza, just as it needs to be in Ukraine.

As most knew was going to happen Netty's government and military have made Gaza unlivable for a large population and they aren't going to let them rebuild.....You would need the opposition in charge in Israel for that.

The time to have stopped Israel was in October/November and that didn't happen so now.....what was predicted to happen has happened.....and you have a starving people in Gaza who needs rescue.

There needs to be a resettlement plan in Egypt that the US/Israel/UN pay for.....but currently it's not happening because the Arabs and everyone else would rather see them starve than take responsibility for them.

It might have been a fair bit easier to stop the IDF, if American arms hadn't been pouring in. So I am wondering what the USA is going to gain out of this. ?
Israel is already building on Palestinian land in the West Bank, presumably for affluent Israeli's, holiday destinations, guarded by armed 'Settlers' with military equipment

Maybe a big US military base(s) to follow ?

"Israeli ministers say 22 new Jewish settlements have been approved in the occupied West Bank - the biggest expansion in decades.

Several already exist as outposts, built without government authorisation, but will now be made legal under Israeli law. Others are completely new, according to Defence Minister Israel Katz and Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich.

Settlements - which are widely seen as illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this - are one of the most contentious issues between Israel and the Palestinians."

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Congrats, you have passed the CPFC Saturn non tabloid troll smell test.

The self assumed moral superiority and hubris of claiming to care more than others about death is risible.

The Dan H point that if Hamas is eradicated then another iteration would emerge is saying that Palestinians will continue to pursue the destruction of the State of Israel by whatever means or name they have to hand.

I don't subscribe to that, I think if the Palestinian true civilians could live normal and safe lives they would, the big if is that there would nned to be some kind of de-radicalisation program that worked.
Stop teaching kids that killing Israelis is a duty and a good thing etc.

Israel would be pleased to have a peaceful Gaza as a source of workers and not firing missiles .

Win - win, unless you think there is no win for Gaza if Israel exists.

Military defence is expensive, Israel would be delighted to save the money Gaza costs and would likely invest into Gaza, with peace the radical extremists in Israeli politics lose their traction.

You've been swanning about trolling for weeks on end accusing people of hating Jews and supporting terrorists - I thought I'd return the favour and tell you what you must really think about something.

Don't go crying about it now TT.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I think most rational people would want HAMAS eliminated. Carpet bombing an entire civilian population, then starving them to death by blocking Aid, might be considered clumsy, at best.

Just thinking with all this IT and intelligence and super-accurate weaponry, that maybe, just maybe, there might have been more precision about destroying HAMAS,....oh, and releasing the hostages.

 

[HKOwen]

You've been swanning about trolling for weeks on end accusing people of hating Jews and supporting terrorists - I thought I'd return the favour and tell you what you must really think about something.

Don't go crying about it now TT.

Not worthy of response, enjoy the view from the moral high ground

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Not worthy of response, enjoy the view from the moral high ground

Off you pop.

 

[steeleye20]

'Zionism as an ideology is a threat to humanity as a whole'

Dr. Azzam Tamini at the Gaza Tribunal.

The language Israel are using with this final Nakba is very reminiscient of the third reich.

'expansion and reinforcement of the eastern axis of the state of Israel', what does that remind you of.

The US and UK are a disgrace.

 

[georgenorman]

'Zionism as an ideology is a threat to humanity as a whole'

Dr. Azzam Tamini at the Gaza Tribunal.

The language Israel are using with this final Nakba is very reminiscient of the third reich.

'expansion and reinforcement of the eastern axis of the state of Israel', what does that remind you of.

The US and UK are a disgrace.

"The US and UK are a disgrace" ! Pot calling the kettle black.
Do you think 9/11 and 7/7 were just punishment for the two "disgraceful" countries?
Why do you live in what you consider a disgraceful country by the way?

 

[DanH]

Congrats, you have passed the CPFC Saturn non tabloid troll smell test.

The self assumed moral superiority and hubris of claiming to care more than others about death is risible.

The Dan H point that if Hamas is eradicated then another iteration would emerge is saying that Palestinians will continue to pursue the destruction of the State of Israel by whatever means or name they have to hand.

I don't subscribe to that, I think if the Palestinian true civilians could live normal and safe lives they would, the big if is that there would nned to be some kind of de-radicalisation program that worked.
Stop teaching kids that killing Israelis is a duty and a good thing etc.

Israel would be pleased to have a peaceful Gaza as a source of workers and not firing missiles .

Win - win, unless you think there is no win for Gaza if Israel exists.

Military defence is expensive, Israel would be delighted to save the money Gaza costs and would likely invest into Gaza, with peace the radical extremists in Israeli politics lose their traction.

This would be absolutely fantastic if it could happen! Unfortunately it is extremely optimistic and nigh on impossible in reality.

Do you not the think that many remaining Palestinians would (and not moralising on this point whatsoever) hold unresolvable anger towards Israel for destroying a large part of the land they call their 'home', their actual homes, and killed many of their family members?

Going through what they have and seeing and experiencing what they have is going to leave them pretty mentally f*cked up as well. As much as we would all like to see the above, I'm not sure forgiving and forgetting will be on the agenda of many.

 

[ASCPFC]

This would be absolutely fantastic if it could happen! Unfortunately it is extremely optimistic and nigh on impossible in reality.

Do you not the think that many remaining Palestinians would (and not moralising on this point whatsoever) hold unresolvable anger towards Israel for destroying a large part of the land they call their 'home', their actual homes, and killed many of their family members?

Going through what they have and seeing and experiencing what they have is going to leave them pretty mentally f*cked up as well. As much as we would all like to see the above, I'm not sure forgiving and forgetting will be on the agenda of many.

I do expect maybe a decade or so of terrorism that will be worse due to the reasons you say. Maybe longer or pretty endless. I also imagine nothing but trouble if they try any resort kind of thing like what was being mooted. I can't see how anyone could be comfortable flying there or staying there - imagine the security required. I mean, how many times do we need to see the same thing?