Israel v Hamas

Oh right, lets just kill them all instead then.

Plenty will die over the next 50, 100 years, sure - according to ChatGPT, the estimated annual deaths pre 2023 were around 500-1000 Palestinians and 10-30 Israelis, as a result of the conflict.

50 years of that would still be less dead than we've seen in 18 months - yes, I think that's a preferable outcome.
So you'd prefer it round the other way?

You don't get it. This war won't stop, because one side will never stop defending it's right to exist, and the other, religious zealots hell bent on killing Jews at any cost.

So now you and they are finding out the cost.

You don't grasp the reality of this because you have no skin in the game.
 
Because that's the point of a forum.

I've been accused of supporting terrorists and hating Jews more times than I can count on here, so forgive me if highlighting dishonesty where it exists offends you.

I don't think it's complicated, but if you can't work out why I referenced The Express, that's fair enough.

I will always be wound up by children being slaughtered - I'd maybe reflect on why you're not.

All the best.

I don't think anyone can question the morality of that or indeed any innocent whose's life is taken by war.

It's one of the main reasons why war is best avoided in most circumstances.

Indeed, personally I've been critical of wars that are far more destructive and expensive than they have been productive or led to better outcomes. However, you will always find a legion of defenders for wars and it's usually those who suffer no personal cost and come with an automatic bias.....Not that I'm criticising coming with a bias as we all have some level of bias regardless of denials.

What I consider worse than all of it is the lying.....it rots western civilisation and if that's ever going to restore itself has to be rooted out.....Yeah I know, it's not going to happen.

The Israeli government runs a line of barefaced lying around its actions and motives around this war and anyone taking notice who's objective knows it. Internally in Israel itself they are more truthful and less reticent to speak of clearing out Gaza and apparently it's quite popular with the public if you frame it right.

The unpleasant truth is that....while I can't defend it morally and indeed I criticise the method. The stark reality is that this war is the reality of 'to the river to the sea'....but for Israel not Palestine. This outcome is critical to their long term survival as a Jewish state not only demographically but also due to the subversion threat from its own left.

(I say this fully aware of the irony considering what certain ethnic diaspora and proxies have striven for and succeeded in within Europe post WW2).

However can we criticise what we see Israel doing in Gaza as morally bankrupt? Hell yeah, because it is....regardless of who does it....starving people out and to death is a war crime. That said most of what goes on in real war is in fact...a war crime.
However, lets not forget that the whole world is watching this and letting it happen because they are refusing to themselves either stop Israel because they fear America and the personal cost or even on the other hand they refuse to work with Israel to remove the Gazans and save their lives. So instead they are allowing what you see.

The method we see speaks to the stark reality that Israel isn't willing to pay the blood price of house to house fighting to defeat Hamas in Gaza.....and to be frank it would be a large blood price as while their have the far better equipment they don't have the tunnels and would be ambushed constantly. Also body bags are extremely unpopular considering that they mostly have a conscript army

So they do what the west did in the second war in Iraq and what all armies do now when faced with this problem. We knock the buildings down everywhere with aviation bombing. Low death cost to themselves and maximum cost to your enemy.

On this Israel can't be accused of being any different to anyone else engaged in warfare (though there is zero morality in it as you kill mostly civilians). What Israel can be criticised on is the scale and the starvation.

However, it's at the least cost to themselves in terms of death, if your end goal is 'to the river to the sea' which has been old Netty's game plan since forever. Israel isn't stupid, they know they are on a generational timer and so their right wingers have decided on this solution and while the boomers and their lobby money still rules in America they are going for it and to hell with the PR. Their message to Jews around the world will be the same as for decades now - come to Israel.....(personally I wouldn't but hell what do I know)

Also, in the final analysis there is little doubt that even worse would be visited upon Israel by its enemies if they had the chance. That isn't a moral defence or excuse for what's happening but it's just a reality.
 
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So you'd prefer it round the other way?

You don't get it. This war won't stop, because one side will never stop defending it's right to exist, and the other, religious zealots hell bent on killing Jews at any cost.

So now you and they are finding out the cost.

You don't grasp the reality of this because you have no skin in the game.
I think based on your contributions to date, it is you who fundamentally doesn't get it - you 'get' the Israeli narrative that they are just these lovely guys peacefully trying to exist and those bloodthirsty Arabs just keep attacking them unprovoked due to an innate hatred of jews - it's just demonstrable nonsense.

This is far more to do with land and territory than it is religion or some innate bloodlust.
 
I don't think anyone can question the morality of that or indeed any innocent whose's life is taken by war.

It's one of the main reasons why war is best avoided in most circumstances.

Indeed, personally I've been critical of wars that are far more destructive and expensive than they have been productive or led to better outcomes. However, you will always find a legion of defenders for wars and it's usually those who suffer no personal cost and come with an automatic bias.....Not that I'm criticising coming with a bias as we all have some level of bias regardless of denials.

What I consider worse than all of it is the lying.....it rots western civilisation and if that's ever going to restore itself has to be rooted out.....Yeah I know, it's not going to happen.

The Israeli government runs a line of barefaced lying around its actions and motives around this war and anyone taking notice who's objective knows it. Internally in Israel itself they are more truthful and less reticent to speak of clearing out Gaza and apparently it's quite popular with the public if you frame it right.

The unpleasant truth is that....while I can't defend it morally and indeed I criticise the method. The stark reality is that this war is the reality of 'to the river to the sea'....but for Israel not Palestine. This outcome is critical to their long term survival as a Jewish state not only demographically but also due to the subversion threat from its own left.

(I say this fully aware of the irony considering what certain ethnic diaspora and proxies have striven for and succeeded in within Europe post WW2).

However can we criticise what we see Israel doing in Gaza as morally bankrupt? Hell yeah, because it is....regardless of who does it....starving people out and to death is a war crime. That said most of what goes on in real war is in fact...a war crime.
However, lets not forget that the whole world is watching this and letting it happen because they are refusing to themselves either stop Israel because they fear America and the personal cost or even on the other hand they refuse work with Israel to remove the Gazans and save their lives. So instead they are allowing what you see.

The method we see speaks to the stark reality that Israel isn't willing to pay the blood price of house to house fighting to defeat Hamas in Gaza.....and to be frank it would be a large blood price as while their have the far better equipment they don't have the tunnels and would be ambushed constantly. Also body bags are extremely unpopular considering that they mostly have a conscript army

So they do what the west did in the second war in Iraq and what all armies do now when faced with this problem. We knock the buildings down everywhere with aviation bombing. Low death cost to themselves and maximum cost to your enemy.

On this Israel can't be accused of being any different to anyone else engaged in warfare (though there is zero morality in it as you kill mostly civilians). What Israel can be criticised on is the scale and the starvation.

However, it's at the least cost to themselves in terms of death, if your end goal is 'to the river to the sea' which has been old Netty's game plan since forever. Israel isn't stupid, they know they are on a generational timer and so their right wingers have decided on this solution and while the boomers and their lobby money still rules in America they are going for it and to hell with the PR. Their message to Jews around the world will be the same as for decades now - come to Israel.....(personally I wouldn't but hell what do I know)

Also, in the final analysis there is little doubt that even worse would be visited upon Israel by its enemies if they had the chance. That isn't a moral defence or excuse for what's happening but it's just a reality.

Great post - I agree with much of it.
 
I think based on your contributions to date, it is you who fundamentally doesn't get it - you 'get' the Israeli narrative that they are just these lovely guys peacefully trying to exist and those bloodthirsty Arabs just keep attacking them unprovoked due to an innate hatred of jews - it's just demonstrable nonsense.

This is far more to do with land and territory than it is religion or some innate bloodlust.
Ridiculous.

Israel is being ruthless in pursuit of their goals which are protecting themselves by annihilating the enemy with minimal casualties on their side.
Prior to October 7th they were doing something more in line with what you think they should be doing.

Palestinians have no more right to the land than Israelis. You think that statements about killing all Jews is just about land? Be serious.

Arabs were killing Jews way before Israel was even a recognised state. This is about hatred first and foremost.
Morality went out of the window for both sides a long time ago.
 
Annoying when he’s the voice of reason, isn’t it 🙂
Whilst we are quite far apart politically, from what I've seen I think Stirling is consistently an interesting poster who at least engages in topics in good faith.

I do find it very amusing how little outrage his criticisms of Israel seem to generate on here compared to mine though - Hrolf's even liked the recent post, even though it basically disagrees with everything he's said 🤣
 
Whilst we are quite far apart politically, from what I've seen I think Stirling is consistently an interesting poster who at least engages in topics in good faith.

I do find it very amusing how little outrage his criticisms of Israel seem to generate on here compared to mine though - Hrolf's even liked the recent post, even though it basically disagrees with everything he's said 🤣
Stirling is right.

He hates war, he doesn't defend killing, and like me, he knows why it's happening. He also knows that the Arabs would be killing all the Israeli kids if they could.

The overriding factor for the West is that Israel is our ally in the region. It seems that people of a certain political bent only criticise Israel as they often criticise their own country. That is the difference between you and he. I know his observations are genuine.
 
Stirling is right.

He hates war, he doesn't defend killing, and like me, he knows why it's happening. He also knows that the Arabs would be killing all the Israeli kids if they could.

The overriding factor for the West is that Israel is our ally in the region. It seems that people of a certain political bent only criticise Israel as they often criticise their own country. That is the difference between you and he. I know his observations are genuine.

Me: "This is far more to do with land and territory than it is religion or some innate bloodlust."

Hrolf: "Ridiculous!"

------------------------

Stirling: "The stark reality is that this war is the reality of 'to the river to the sea'....but for Israel not Palestine." "end goal is 'to the river to the sea' which has been old Netty's game plan since forever."

Hrolf: *likes*

🤣 🤣 🤣
 
Me: "This is far more to do with land and territory than it is religion or some innate bloodlust."

Hrolf: "Ridiculous!"

------------------------

Stirling: "The stark reality is that this war is the reality of 'to the river to the sea'....but for Israel not Palestine." "end goal is 'to the river to the sea' which has been old Netty's game plan since forever."

Hrolf: *likes*

🤣 🤣 🤣

I don't want to presume to speak for Hrolf but I think he just disagrees on the extent of difference between the two.

I kind of agree with you both because it's different depending upon the politics of the Israeli you speak to.

In terms of the Israeli government I think it's genuine hatred.... (a requirement if you are going to kill people without fecking yourself up mentally (unless you're a sociopath)) and that hatred and bloodlust is mixed in with the conviction and calculation that this is the only way to achieve their ends.....Netty's never really hidden it for decades.

Besides you have the 'sunken cost' calculation that their only way out of prison is to clear out Gaza and present a clear win to the public.....something similar to the Trump video where they end up with his idealic Gaza for tourists.....it all being built upon the blood and flesh of Palestinians buried beneath them is a cost they are willing to pay......as thus it was with the creation of all borders.

Regardless, if they stopped now it's curtains for them and that's been the case since late October.

Pretty much everyone is coming for the Israeli cabinet and they know it and it drives their actions as much as anything else.
 
Me: "This is far more to do with land and territory than it is religion or some innate bloodlust."

Hrolf: "Ridiculous!"

------------------------

Stirling: "The stark reality is that this war is the reality of 'to the river to the sea'....but for Israel not Palestine." "end goal is 'to the river to the sea' which has been old Netty's game plan since forever."

Hrolf: *likes*

🤣 🤣 🤣
Are you stupid?

What was ridiculous is that you claim that I think Israel are 'nice'.

It is also ridiculous to ignore religious hatred as a motivation.

You are completely disingenuous. You come at this with a humanitarian stance, and yet your humanity only seems to apply to one side.

This war could end tomorrow if Hamas and friends disappeared. They are the problem, and the likes of them are also our problem.

I can't say it could end if Hamas accepted the State of Israel because I wouldn't believe a word they said, and more importantly, neither would Israel.
 
Whilst we are quite far apart politically, from what I've seen I think Stirling is consistently an interesting poster who at least engages in topics in good faith.

I do find it very amusing how little outrage his criticisms of Israel seem to generate on here compared to mine though - Hrolf's even liked the recent post, even though it basically disagrees with everything he's said 🤣

Well, I wouldn't say they are welcome with those who differ with me.

However, I'm right wing and probably agree with most of the politics of those arguing with you. People are never going to all agree on everything and I think there is more of an acceptance on the right for that.

Besides it's hardly as if I'm arguing for the Palestinians......I just think it's all fecked up and like any person who values innocence the death of civilians and children hurts me.

You're quite a new poster, if you stick around and treat people fairly over time people will gauge you out and if they regard you as genuine you'll be treated as such.

You certainly won't be banned for being on the left and having some political opinion that's not popular with the majority or the mods as happens over at that other place.
 
Are you stupid?

What was ridiculous is that you claim that I think Israel are 'nice'.

It is also ridiculous to ignore religious hatred as a motivation.

You are completely disingenuous. You come at this with a humanitarian stance, and yet your humanity only seems to apply to one side.

This war could end tomorrow if Hamas and friends disappeared. They are the problem, and the likes of them are also our problem.

I can't say it could end if Hamas accepted the State of Israel because I wouldn't believe a word they said, and more importantly, neither would Israel.
How do I apply my humanity to the state who are actively killing tens of thousands of civilians, while suffering next to zero losses of their own?
 
I don't want to presume to speak for Hrolf but I think he just disagrees on the extent of difference between the two.

I kind of agree with you both because it's different depending upon the politics of the Israeli you speak to.

In terms of the Israeli government I think it's genuine hatred.... (a requirement if you are going to kill people without fecking yourself up mentally (unless you're a sociopath)) and that hatred and bloodlust is mixed in with the conviction and calculation that this is the only way to achieve their ends.....Netty's never really hidden it for decades.

Besides you have the 'sunken cost' calculation that their only way out of prison is to clear out Gaza and present a clear win to the public.....something similar to the Trump video where they end up with his idealic Gaza for tourists.....it all being built upon the blood and flesh of Palestinians buried beneath them is a cost they are willing to pay......as thus it was with the creation of all borders.

Regardless, if they stopped now it's curtains for them and that's been the case since late October.

Pretty much everyone is coming for the Israeli cabinet and they know it and it drives their actions as much as anything else.

To clarify, Hrolf’s view seems to be that the bloodlust and hatred exists specifically on the Palestinian side, and that Palestinians are just so blinded by hatred of Jews that there is nothing else which can be done.

I stand to be corrected, but to my memory, he has never acknowledged or mentioned any bloodlust on the side of the Israelis, who are of course just acting in self-defence against the bloodthirsty Palestinians.
 
To clarify, Hrolf’s view seems to be that the bloodlust and hatred exists specifically on the Palestinian side, and that Palestinians are just so blinded by hatred of Jews that there is nothing else which can be done.

I stand to be corrected, but to my memory, he has never acknowledged or mentioned any bloodlust on the side of the Israelis, who are of course just acting in self-defence against the bloodthirsty Palestinians.

Well the Palestinians once occupied that land and now find themselves as a captive population in reducing areas. They are a radicalised population and hate is now ingrained from birth.

Israelis want to keep what they have and extend it because they correctly judge that they will never be safe without a significant no man's land between their enemies and their main populations.

Does it really matter who hates who more?

At the end of the day all that really mattes is what your leaders end up producing for you.
 
How do I apply my humanity to the state who are actively killing tens of thousands of civilians, while suffering next to zero losses of their own?
It seems that you think that because Israel has superior power, it is the bad guy.

This is the fundamental issue that we disagree on. Both sides are ruthless and would be happy to wipe out the other, women and children included. It is not as simple as suggesting that Israel could show restraint.
Netanyahu has been given the perfect excuse to try and end this conflict once and for all, or at least remove a large part of the problem.

Hamas gave him that opportunity, and the price for their barbarity is a high one for Palestinians.

Since Hamas hide among civilians and live down extensive tunnels, the task of routing them out is almost impossible without unacceptable casualties for Israel. Bombing is the preferred tactic.

I'm afraid that in this kind of conflict, many soldiers seem to lose any empathy for the enemy once they become conditioned by the daily bloodshed.
 
To clarify, Hrolf’s view seems to be that the bloodlust and hatred exists specifically on the Palestinian side, and that Palestinians are just so blinded by hatred of Jews that there is nothing else which can be done.

I stand to be corrected, but to my memory, he has never acknowledged or mentioned any bloodlust on the side of the Israelis, who are of course just acting in self-defence against the bloodthirsty Palestinians.
I think extremism exists on both sides, as does hatred. The hatred is a separate issue from disputes about land. Jew/Arab hatred has existed way before this.

It's probably quite hard to stop hating people who want to kill you
 
My reading of it is that Hamas walked into a trap.

If you're going to head into Israel and kill 1300 Israelis and kidnap then it really has to be all or nothing when the Israeli government facing you is proper right wing. If they were going to do this (which was insane) then it had to be with the agreement of Hezbollah in invade from the north at the same time.

You do everything all at once for the best chance of winning......Instead they thought that Israel could be held to some kind of moral standard post October 7th......Poor calculation.

The way I see it they were out-smarted by Netty.....Who I think knew about these plans long ago.

In fact the Jews have been out-smarting the Arabs since 1947.....Well, since Balfour.....They invested in Europe/US and the Arabs just spent that oil on enriching their nobility. It's only been in recent years that Saudi and co have caught on and started investing in the US.
 
Not remotely true, but at this point you are clearly deliberately misrepresenting what people post and presenting straw man arguments - I guess it makes sense as your position becomes more and more ridiculous to hold.

You provided a list of Israelis and Zionists who say it isn't genocide... amazing work.

The UN has not declared it a genocide.

The ICJ said allegations are plausible but has not declared it a genocide.

The ICC has issued arrest warrants over war crimes but has not declared it a genocide.

Most democratic governments – including US, UK, Germany, France, Canada, Australia – have not declared it a genocide.

Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International have made war crimes accusations but not declared it a genocide.

Genocide Watch and many legal scholars have not declared it a genocide.
 

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