War in Ukraine

[eaglesdare]

You'll need to explain what you mean. I've given you equivalences of other territories and some decent reasoning of motives, of hypocrisy, but you've just called it virtue signalling. That makes no sense at all, it's not virtue signalling to say that Russia has ideals on former Soviet states and that Putin would've invaded anyway, it's not virtue signalling to tell you that Russia is considered our enemy, nor to point out that this invasion wasn't the first, nor that had Biden had balls Putin could've been utterly crushed without putting a Western boot on the ground.

One thing is for sure, Putin can't believe his luck.

Yes Russia are in the wrong. Yes Ukraine have been invaded. Yes Putin and Russia are the enemy. I agree 🤷🏻‍♂️

The EU, NATO and zelensky have had years and were in a strong position to negotiate a better deal. Why not do a deal back then instead of waiting? Or better yet not act like idiots and provoke Russia into invading in the first place.

And now we are left with Ukraine most likely not getting a good deal for themselves. They will owe a lot of money back.
Countless lives now lost for virtue signalling. I dunnow about you but I would give up land if it meant saving even one life. Life is priceless.

Russia needs to be managed. It's not your ordinary Joe. It's not black and white. You can't go around poking the beehive and expect not to get stung.

 

[DanH]

Only the left would view 'Andrew Neil' as quite to the right.

I think you mean compared to you Dan.

Neil is a social liberal and a centralist.....he even thinks GBNews is too right wing.

Well whatever his politics he’s an extremely credible journalist.

When it comes down to who to trust on these matters, him, or someone who has parroted online right wing memes and tropes for years and supposedly well ‘researched’ and ‘informed’ views are consistently aligned with Kremlin propaganda pumped out, then I know where I sit.

 

[Stirlingsays]

The US will withdraw all support for Ukraine, throwing them under the bus. They might fight on alone but will be defeated and lose even more land. If they agree to some so called deal, Putin will consolidate and resume hostilities in a year or two. Europe and the UK will wring their hands but do nothing of substance. China will probably move against Taiwan as Trump is making it obvious that he is going to follow an isolationist policy. Israel's enemies will also be energised but Israel are more than capable of dealing with them alone.

I think a lot depends upon the deal Trump and Putin make.

In fact there won't be a deal if Russia thinks it provides Ukraine with an opportunity to retake the lands it's taken. To my mind that means that you are going to have a non aligned party ruling Ukraine.....Personally I think that will be pretty difficult to do for several reasons.

So I don't really see a deal for at least the summer....Hopefully I'm wrong but I don't think Russia stop until Ukraine is a rump state and they have a very strong position.

You think Putin wants to hold lands that are anti Russian, whereas I don't think that's realistic for several reasons.....No support from BRICs for that, the economic cost, the demographic cost....Holding land that's against you doesn't work well, as we found out in Iraq and the Russians found out in Afghanistan......Unless you are prepared to just kill everyone.

My prediction is that Russia will only hold onto the East part of Ukraine and give up extra areas in the eventual settlement......and as I've said from near the beginning, we will be left holding the baby.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Well whatever his politics he’s an extremely credible journalist.

When it comes down to who to trust on these matters, him, or someone who has parroted online right wing memes and tropes for years and supposedly well ‘researched’ and ‘informed’ views are consistently aligned with Kremlin propaganda pumped out, then I know where I sit.

That's cool Dan, you are of course entitled to that view.

Only time will reveal who is right on Ukraine and where the correct analysis was....or mostly correct anyway.

 

[Spindle]

Yes Russia are in the wrong. Yes Ukraine have been invaded. Yes Putin and Russia are the enemy. I agree 🤷🏻‍♂️

The EU, NATO and zelensky have had years and were in a strong position to negotiate a better deal. Why not do a deal back then instead of waiting? Or better yet not act like idiots and provoke Russia into invading in the first place.

And now we are left with Ukraine most likely not getting a good deal for themselves. They will owe a lot of money back.
Countless lives now lost for virtue signalling. I dunnow about you but I would give up land if it meant saving even one life. Life is priceless.

Russia needs to be managed. It's not your ordinary Joe. It's not black and white. You can't go around poking the beehive and expect not to get stung.

Maybe they didn't expect to get utterly shafted by Kremlin Trump, a man who has decided to saddle up with the world's biggest gangster. Trump isn't stupid in that he knows who started it and who the scumbag is, he would just prefer to satisfy himself by screwing the Dems in every possible way he can.

You cannot be serious that you would think that an invaded country should do a deal and think Russia would even accept it.

This event is shameful.

 

[eaglesdare]

Maybe they didn't expect to get utterly shafted by Kremlin Trump, a man who has decided to saddle up with the world's biggest gangster. Trump isn't stupid in that he knows who started it and who the scumbag is, he would just prefer to satisfy himself by screwing the Dems in every possible way he can.

You cannot be serious that you would think that an invaded country should do a deal and think Russia would even accept it.

This event is shameful.

I don't but there isn't a lot of other options left.

Like I've said previously an ideal world Ukraine dictates terms etc...gets their land back etc... but it's not an ideal world and it won't happen. The best we can hope for is peace and de-escalation.

Perhaps if the EU, NATO and zelensky had any cop on the last few years and got a better deal it would not have come to this.

 

[Stirlingsays]

The social liberals currently in charge in Europe and here are probably going to position themselves against the Trump administration.

That's not going to go very well for us.....their little battles only weaken our economy. If they aren't careful he'll pivot more to the countries he prefers, Russia, India and Saudi and more away from us.

We need right wing governments back in charge.....Well, the first to fall is going to be Germany.....ruling party at 15 percent.

 

[kevlee]

How have we got to a position that within a week of Trump deciding to wade he has effectively sided with Russia and is calling Ukraine a dictatorship?

 

[Stirlingsays]

How have we got to a position that within a week of Trump deciding to wade he has effectively sided with Russia and is calling Ukraine a dictatorship?

Have you mainly been watching the BBC or ITV?

There's been a lot going on in American right wing circles these past few years.

 

[kevlee]

Have you mainly been watching the BBC or ITV?

There's been a lot going on in American right wing circles these past few years.

 

[DanH]

Have you mainly been watching the BBC or ITV?

There's been a lot going on in American right wing circles these past few years.

What right wing circles are these? Probably only fair you share your sources on here.

 

[Stirlingsays]

What right wing circles are these? Probably only fair you share your sources on here.

Sometimes Dan you say stuff that makes me wonder.

Trump mate, haven't you been listening to Trump since about 2014? He started the America first movement (which has its roots in the tea party movement and Paleo-conservativism before it). He's hardly been quiet about what he thinks.

I know you're a lefty and think everyone to the right of Andrew Neil
is goose stepping in their living rooms but in reality that's all a bit unhinged.

It's in the hallway.

 

[DanH]

Sometimes Dan you say stuff that makes me wonder.

Trump mate, haven't you been listening to Trump since about 2014? He started the America first movement (which has its roots in the tea party movement and Paleo-conservativism before it). He's hardly been quiet about what he thinks.

I know you're a lefty and think everyone to the right of Andrew Neil
is goose stepping in their living rooms but in reality that's all a bit unhinged.

It's in the hallway.

Well you ‘hear’ a lot of stuff that us supposed ill informed and uneducated ‘normies’ are apparently not reading or watching to get us to the same enlightened position as you.

Just feel you should share what these are, especially as it seems like most the other right wing posters on here seem to not really be seeing your position on this on here either.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Well you ‘hear’ a lot of stuff that us supposed ill informed and uneducated ‘normies’ are apparently not reading or watching to get us to the same enlightened position as you.

Just feel you should share what these are, especially as it seems like most the other right wing posters on here seem to not really be seeing your position on this on here either.

Well, on the Ukraine war I use Telegram, because you get a lot of actual war footage from the actual battlefield. On there you will see most of the footage that the elites get to see themselves, because they can't censor it......I say don't look for it if you have a weak stomach.

On the wider movement and progress zoomed out onto the battlefield I watch the DPA channel on Youtube: He's pretty objective and takes the output from both Ukraine and Russia sources.

In terms of the historical context Dan.....Well, for one thing I'm 55 Dan and was alive for the fall of the Berlin wall and watched it in real time and so know what the positions of both sides were at the time. I was listening to Farage's warnings on Nato expansion east ten-twenty years ago...it was hotly contested even at the time..... and when the war started in 2022 I essentially investigated both arguments and I regard John Mearsheimer & Jeffrey Sachs view of events as the more impartial and accurate one.

As for my influences on being a social conservative.....Really Dan are you asking me that? I've literally shared these many many times on Hol and posted many links....Obviously there are my own perspectives which I've shared many times on Hol......I like Ben Habib a lot, Matthew Goodwin, Neema Parvini
(Academic Agent) and I subscribe to the LotusEaters.

Lotus Eaters

lotuseaters.com

What next Dan? Are you going to ask me what I had for dinner?

 

[DanH]

Well, on the Ukraine war I use Telegram, because you get a lot of actual war footage from the actual battlefield. On there you will see most of the footage that the elites get to see themselves, because they can't censor it......I say don't look for it if you have a weak stomach.

On the wider movement and progress zoomed out onto the battlefield I watch the DPA channel on Youtube: He's pretty objective and takes the output from both Ukraine and Russia sources.

In terms of the historical context Dan.....Well, for one thing I'm 55 Dan and was alive for the fall of the Berlin wall and watched it in real time and so know what the positions of both sides were at the time. I was listening to Farage's warnings on Nato expansion east ten-twenty years ago...it was hotly contested even at the time..... and when the war started in 2022 I essentially investigated both arguments and I regard John Mearsheimer & Jeffrey Sachs view of events as the more impartial and accurate one.

As for my influences on being a social conservative.....Really Dan are you asking me that? I've literally shared these many many times on Hol and posted many links....Obviously there are my own perspectives which I've shared many times on Hol......I like Ben Habib a lot, Matthew Goodwin, Neema Parvini
(Academic Agent) and I subscribe to the LotusEaters.

Lotus Eaters

lotuseaters.com

What next Dan? Are you going to ask me what I had for dinner?

How Telegram became the hub of Russian propaganda - Coda Story

Ukraine considers banning the app as a threat to its national security

www.codastory.com

Just one of many, many sources that highlights how Telegram is literally the platform of Russian propaganda.

 

[Stirlingsays]

How Telegram became the hub of Russian propaganda - Coda Story

Ukraine considers banning the app as a threat to its national security

www.codastory.com

Just one of many, many sources that highlights how Telegram is literally the platform of Russian propaganda.

You want to tell that to all the pro Ukrainian channels on it?

Honestly Dan you're such an establishment shill.....How is what your sourcing free from bias anyway? ....I mean look at the backers of the site you just used, you literally have Open Society funding them....literally a who's who of Biden/Democrat backers and supporters.

Besides I don't use Telegram for political commentary, I use it for battle footage, like I told you.

 

[DanH]

You want to tell that to all the pro Ukrainian channels on it?

Honestly Dan you're such an establishment shill.....How is what your sourcing free from bias anyway? ....I mean look at the backers of the site you just used, you literally have Open Society funding them....literally a who's who of Biden/Democrat backers and supporters.

Besides I don't use Telegram for political commentary, I use it for battle footage, like I told you.

So how are your information sources free from any bias or funding? Or is it just comment free battle footage that you’ve made your own opinions from through your in depth knowledge and personal experience of combat and the Russian/Ukraine border?

Everything you post traces back to Russian sources. No one who has ever been radicalised realises they have been.

 

[Stirlingsays]

So how are your information sources free from any bias or funding? Or is it just comment free battle footage that you’ve made your own opinions from through your in depth knowledge and personal experience of combat and the Russian/Ukraine border?

Everything you post traces back to Russian sources. No ones who has ever been radicalised realises they have been.

Stop lying Dan.

Telegram is owned by a Russian, but as I stated it has pro Ukrainian sources on there too.

There isn't another 'Russian source'.

This 'radicalisation' nonsense. So tell me Dan, was being against the Iraq war....because Saddam Hussain was against the Iraq war....did that mean you were a supporter of Saddam Hussain?

This is just debunked logic. It ignores the arguments and does the guilt by association fallacy, when there isn't even a pro Russian news source allowed in the country.....amusing really, Putin lets the BBC question him in Russia and yet the western leaders ban the opposite.

'So how are your information sources free from any bias or funding?'.....Very few are, you certainly don't link to any sites that don't support your opinions do you?....So aren't you judging me by a double standard?

 

[DanH]

Stop lying Dan.

Telegram is owned by a Russian, but as I stated it has pro Ukrainian sources on there too.

There isn't another 'Russian source'.

This 'radicalisation' nonsense. So tell me Dan, was being against the Iraq war....because Saddam Hussain was against the Iraq war....did that mean you were a supporter of Saddam Hussain?

This is just debunked logic. It ignores the arguments and does the guilt by association fallacy, when there isn't even a pro Russian news source allowed in the country.....amusing really, Putin lets the BBC question him in Russia and yet the western leaders ban the opposite.

Well there’s a huge goalpost change there under pressure. You have a history of posting quite easily debunked ‘facts’ on here from quite questionable sources, and a real lack of understanding of statistics. It’s only fair they are held up to proper scrutiny.

While we’re talking about Russian news sources, how do you feel about the freedom of speech and information that Russian citizens get?

Telegram: why the app is allowed when other social media is censored in Russia

Telegram is used by many Russians to keep in touch, and share news.

theconversation.com

Where do Russians get news?​

In the past decade, Russia’s media landscape has undergone significant censorship due to increasing state control. Radio stations have closed down and many journalists have left the country to be able to report.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Well there’s a huge goalpost change there under pressure. You have a history of posting quite easily debunked ‘facts’ on here from quite questionable sources, and a real lack of understanding of statistics. It’s only fair they are held up to proper scrutiny.

Oh really, care to provide evidence for this claim?

While we’re talking about Russian news sources, how do you feel about the freedom of speech and information that Russian citizens get?

it's not good in terms of opposition freedoms to criticise the government and that deserves to be criticised, but Ukraine are similar, well worse actually as Russia hasn't banned churches......Gonzalo Lira criticised Ukraine from inside Ukraine and died in Ukrainian prison not long after jailing.

Versions of what Russia does also done to different groups all over the west....Not to the same extent...but groups outside the establishment have been censored and persecuted.

For example, what opposition to the government narrative on Covid was allowed on national television? What commentary was allowed on television that pointed out grooming gangs until The Times exposed it? They themselves saying they ignored reports from the 'far right' about it.

I don't say we are as bad as slavic countries yet, but this country has suffered a significant downswing in freedom of expression and stance.

Telegram: why the app is allowed when other social media is censored in Russia

Telegram is used by many Russians to keep in touch, and share news.

theconversation.com

Where do Russians get news?​

In the past decade, Russia’s media landscape has undergone significant censorship due to increasing state control. Radio stations have closed down and many journalists have left the country to be able to report.

To anyone reading this let me link you to the home page of the site Dan uses here.....The guy moaning at me for bias....a guy who seemingly reads nothing other than his own political biases.

The Conversation UK is your most reliable trusted news. Written by academics.

Curated by professional editors, The Conversation offers informed commentary and debate on the issues affecting our world. Plus a Plain English guide to the latest developments and discoveries from the university and research sector.

theconversation.com

As for Russia, you seem to ignore the fact that I've criticised Russia many times.....doesn't seem to register with yourself. Amongst that criticism has been a focus on its lack of free speech and corruption.....I've literally said feck Putin and feck Zelensky.

As usual ignored, because apparently I've been radicalised by 'Russian propaganda'......says the guy linking to his own propaganda.