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War in Ukraine

One of the things that should be mentioned is the closing down of churches. The Russian Orthodox leader is a Putin supporter and openly supports Russia's war against Ukraine. Ukraine has, therefore, separated from the Russian Orthodox church.
I do realise that some traditional Ukrainians will be affected by this, but I can't blame them for closing churches that openly described Ukraine as the evil enemy.
 
You never know who is putting out the lies and why. Trump seemingly ceding ground in negotiations with Russia already, might seem that they are colluding over splitting the ill-gotten gains of Ukraine (in terms of minerals and other resources) , but Russia keeping political and military control.
Russia wants Crimea. Possibly because of the sea route to Saudi oil.

Difficult to second-guess what's happening, with all the misinformation out there.

And just to state my view from the outset, was that wanting to expand NATO into Ukraine was the cause of this. I'm not saying Russia wouldn't have invaded anyway, but it just gave them an excuse on a plate.
 
You know what guys I'm fed up with arguing against this pointless bellyaching for war with Russia.

Ok, we know now that the US isn't going to be acting as a 'backstop' in Ukraine and that Europe will have to rely upon itself if it wants to get involved militarily in Ukraine.

So ok.....Some of us have been warning about this for some time and we get constantly criticised, and told that we are Putin fans because we don't agree with the media narrative.....apparently we are thick.

So you know what, I shrug my shoulders, let these guys have their war with Russia unopposed....Our words are already written, there's no need to constantly repeat them is there.

The only thing though is that they have to own the consequences. As the shallow media and public turn against them they have to be on here defending their position because they fought like lions to commit us to war.
 
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Teddy Eagle said:
How could it be any different with a country whose expansionist policy was called Manifest Destiny?
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Yep, though thankfully it seems like the anti war isolationists are back in charge in the US.

That is of course unless you happen to be Gaza, Greenland or the Panama canal.

Said with love to our cousins.
 
Negotiating a settlement is easier than warfare. The situation in Ukraine has just highlighted the abject failure of Europe, on defence, the economies and on immigration.
 
DanH said:
Tom Tugendhat has the patience of an absolute saint here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1892513924525826249
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He says Putin murdered Navalny now that may or may not have happened as we have no way of knowing. However Tugendhat says this when Ukraine's head of defence himself said that Navalny had died of natural causes, specifically a blood clot.

www.pravda.com.ua

Ukraine’s Defence Intelligence chief claims Navalny died of natural causes

Kyrylo Budanov, the head of Ukraine’s Defence Intelligence, has stated that Russian opposition politician Alexei Navalny died of natural causes, specifically a blood clot.
www.pravda.com.ua www.pravda.com.ua

He criticises the lack of a media opposition in Russia, highlighting GBNews as a news channel he disagrees with that is allowed to operate....Well, yeah I recognise that media freedoms are better here....currently. However he says this seemingly without regard to the fact that we literally have significant moves all the time to shut GBNews down.

As for the rest of it I just heard the usual crazy justification for supporting a war with Russia....because Putin bad.
 
Stirlingsays said:
It's right that there were only two routes to victory. One was economic and the second was an internal break up in Russia.

Both were unlikely and it was a very bad assessment to go down those routes.

For people who knew Russia's motivation for the war they know that they considered it existential and thus the Russian economy would have had to collapse for that to happen....well considering that Russia is a massive food and gas hub, that was unlike to happen.....all that happened was to push them to China, who would back them for geostrategic reasons.

So in short a disastrous policy.

As for the policy of relying on a break up of Russia with its high nationalistic sentiment and massive number of nuclear weapons.....I consider that as even crazier.



Economies, demographics and will decide wars....the last two being the most important. Any student of history could tell you that.




I get bored having to state the same answers to your obviously bad memory. Ok, elections were held in Iraqi, Afghanistan, Vietnam and Russia while wars were underway. So your analysis here is faulty as usual....It may well pan out that we see an election in Ukraine itself before this war ends as well.

My parrot was correct, your parrot wasn't.
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There is an obvious difference between trying to run a free and fair election in a democratic state whose constitution specifically bans them in war time and puppet elections in autocracies or dictatorships that don’t. Ukraine cannot run an election at the moment, neither logistically nor constitutionally.

Russia had no rational reason to believe there was an existential threat from Ukraine. That’s always been and excuse and not a reason for their invasion. Squeezing them hard enough for long enough will work. It just needs determination and patience.

Economics and demographics will only get you so far, even with all the will in the world.
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
I think they've negotiated to split the Ukrainian minerals and metals between them. Putin keeps Ukraine.
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I don't think Putin wants west Ukraine and I don't think he sees the utility in holding central Ukraine....except for giving it up in the final deal if he gets that far.

It's going to be fascinating what deal Trump and Putin come to on American involvement in Ukraine.....because that's what is happening here. I said this a while back that Trump would set the terms and if Europe/Ukraine refused he would leave them to it.....within Ukraine, I suspect he would still tell Putin not to touch a Nato country.....Putin then continues taking land until Ukraine wants to talk.

What I can fully predict is that Putin won't stop the war so that Ukraine can later build up to retake the east. So I could see restrictions on the Ukrainian military but perhaps a non Nato cover force of French and British troops and maybe others.

But hey, maybe the Reddit brigade and people who think that Dad's Army was a documentary will convince the Army to send troops over there to biff Putin on the nose.....Because that's what it sounds like they want.

They moan like a hooker whose client forgot his wallet, but they aren't likely to get their war....So I'm not saying I agree that any final negotiation is great, but then again I wouldn't have got here in the first place.....but it's looking more and more likely that a final agreement will result in something like the above.

It's a sh1te deal for Ukraine and a sh1te deal for us, but that's the position these geniuses left themselves with.
 
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Wisbech Eagle said:
There is an obvious difference between trying to run a free and fair election in a democratic state whose constitution specifically bans them in war time and puppet elections in autocracies or dictatorships that don’t. Ukraine cannot run an election at the moment, neither logistically nor constitutionally.

Russia had no rational reason to believe there was an existential threat from Ukraine. That’s always been and excuse and not a reason for their invasion. Squeezing them hard enough for long enough will work. It just needs determination and patience.

Economics and demographics will only get you so far, even with all the will in the world.
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You talk like the Ukrainian constitution doesn't get changed....it's exactly what they want it to be.

As stated, elections are held in countries at war many times....I stated some in an earlier post, hell as Farage said the other day we held an election in 1945, while our troops were still dying every day in WW2.

I would have little doubt that any deal on elections in Ukraine would be agreed with Russia beforehand and involve a ceasefire.....As it would be in their self interest.

As for your thoughts on the other stuff, that's going on old ground which we just completely disagree on....and I think events have proven me right that ignoring these realities only led us into awful outcomes.
 
Stirlingsays said:
I don't think Putin wants west Ukraine and I don't think he sees the utility in holding central Ukraine.

It's going to be fascinating what deal Trump and Putin come to on American involvement in Ukraine.....because that's what is happening here. I said this a while back that Trump would set the terms and if Europe/Ukraine refused he would leave them to it.....within Ukraine, I suspect he would still tell Putin not to touch a Nato country.....Putin then continues taking land until Ukraine wants to talk.

What I can fully predict is that Putin won't stop the war so that Ukraine can later build up to retake the east. So I could see restrictions on the Ukrainian military but perhaps a non Nato cover force of French and British troops and maybe others.

But hey, maybe the Reddit brigade and people who think that Dad's Army was a documentary will convince the Army to send troops over there to biff Putin on the nose.....Because that's what it sounds like they want.

They moan like a hooker whose client forgot his wallet, but they aren't likely to get their war....So I'm not saying I agree that any final negotiation is great, but then again I wouldn't have got here in the first place.....but it's looking more and more likely that a final agreement will result in something like the above.

It's a sh1te deal for Ukraine and a sh1te deal for us, but that's the position these geniuses left themselves with.
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You worry the Ukraine will build up its strength sufficient to challenge Russia?

Are you for real? It’s the kind of transparent garbage that Putin, and now his best mate Trump, claims. Everyone else worries about Putin rebuilding his military, ignoring peace agreements and continuing his stated quest to rebuild the Soviet Union. Something he believes should not have been broken up.

What Putin says he wants, and what he actually wants, are not even similar. He just cannot be trusted and that must always be the default position.

There’s something going on here that makes no sense. A pivot like this doesn’t happen naturally. Something has caused it. Whether those who are directing Trump’s agenda approve or are orchestrating it is unclear. Time will tell.
 
Stirlingsays said:
You talk like the Ukrainian constitution doesn't get changed....it's exactly what they want it to be.

As stated, elections are held in countries at war many times....I stated some in an earlier post, hell as Farage said the other day we held an election in 1945, while our troops were still dying every day in WW2.

I would have little doubt that any deal on elections in Ukraine would be agreed with Russia beforehand and involve a ceasefire.....As it would be in their self interest.

As for your thoughts on the other stuff, that's going on old ground which we just completely disagree on....and I think events have proven me right that ignoring these realities only led us into awful outcomes.
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Who on earth would bother with amending their constitution just so they could hold elections when under martial law, with 20% of their land occupied, a third of their people abroad and their cities under attack every day. They have rather more important things on their mind.

Anyone who seriously believes they should, or even could, do that is crazy.

A peace deal THEY negotiate comes first. Any election held under just a ceasefire would hang over and influence the electorate with the threat that hostilities would be resumed if they don’t vote the way that Putin wants.
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
You worry the Ukraine will build up its strength sufficient to challenge Russia?
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Nope, who runs the Donbas doesn't bother me, not worth the blood of even one Brit (many people don't realise it but we have lost more than a few). However, Putin isn't stupid and that's obviously going to be a major factor for him in the eventual deal.....Or do you think otherwise?
Wisbech Eagle said:
Are you for real? It’s the kind of transparent garbage that Putin, and now his best mate Trump, claims. Everyone else worries about Putin rebuilding his military, ignoring peace agreements and continuing his stated quest to rebuild the Soviet Union. Something he believes should not have been broken up.
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Show we where he has said this.

Wisbech Eagle said:
What Putin says he wants, and what he actually wants, are not even similar. He just cannot be trusted and that must always be the default position.
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Again, this is signing cheques you can't pay. Just more pointless waffle....Why trust someone? A peace deal that 'trusts' people is a stupid deal. You build in mechanisms that allay the concerns of both sides.

Or what....what are you saying? Are you saying we should be going to war against Russia?

Wisbech Eagle said:
There’s something going on here that makes no sense. A pivot like this doesn’t happen naturally. Something has caused it. Whether those who are directing Trump’s agenda approve or are orchestrating it is unclear. Time will tell.
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Trump has been quite clear, he's not interested in spending hundreds of billions on Ukraine.....He's going to focus on the economy for two years.....I think it's as simple as that.
 
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