War in Ukraine

[Spindle]

There was a deal they had half agreed on just a few weeks after the war started 2022.....that was the deal that Johnson and Biden insisted Zelensky shouldn't sign.....The parts they hadn't agreed on could have been trashed out. I asked copilot for you.

View attachment 676

Massive mistake.

When the deal fell through Russia said that they wouldn't get anything like those terms again and they will certainly be correct on that one.

We don't know if that's a mistake. Why would the EU and Zelensky trust a guy who has breached 190+ deals, contracts and arrangements with other nations in hte 25 years he's been in power? ONE HUNDRED AND NINETY.

You'd sign would you? Knowing that it was not only Crimea and the Donbas you were losing, plus zero guarantee against future invasion. Russia and Ukraine have been at it for 300 years, it's naive to think that it ends anyway.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Nope, who runs the Donbas doesn't bother me, not worth the blood of even one Brit (many people don't realise it but we have lost more than a few). However, Putin isn't stupid and that's obviously going to be a major factor for him in the eventual deal.....Or do you think otherwise?


Show we where he has said this.



Again, this is signing cheques you can't pay. Just more pointless waffle....Why trust someone? A peace deal that 'trusts' people is a stupid deal. You build in mechanisms that allay the concerns of both sides.

Or what....what are you saying? Are you saying we should be going to war against Russia?



Trump has been quite clear, he's not interested in spending hundreds of billions on Ukraine.....He's going to focus on the economy for two years.....I think it's as simple as that.

I bet who runs the Donbas bothers most Ukrainians. Which is rather more important and relevant than what bothers you. If it’s Putin what’s going to stop him moving west? Your trust that he won’t? I don’t think he is stupid. I think he is obsessed.

You need to distill the essence out of these to understand Putin’s ambitions. Plausible deniability being learned very early by every KGB operative:-

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/10/europe/russia-putin-empire-restoration-endgame-intl-cmd/index.html

Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ‘Soviet’ Russia

The world was stunned when Russia invaded Crimea, but should it have been, asks author and journalist Oliver Bullough.

www.bbc.co.uk

Putin’s dark designs: Restore the pre-1917 Russian empire

Leading Ukraine-Russia historian weighs in on why Putin moved against Ukraine, and NATO's best posture

news.ucr.edu

This is an extract from one speech referenced in those articles. It’s clear enough:-

“Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning. This is how it was. The areas around Lake Ladoga, where St Petersburg was founded. When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. However, from time immemorial, the Slavs lived there along with the Finno-Ugric peoples, and this territory was under Russia’s control. The same is true of the western direction, Narva and his first campaigns. Why would he go there? He was returning and reinforcing, that is what he was doing.

Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well. And if we operate on the premise that these basic values constitute the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in achieving our goals.”

I agree that trust cannot play a role in any deal but Trump obviously doesn’t. He just wants out and to carve up the mineral rights. Make friends with Putin but lose the respect of the entire free world, including many if not most of the people in the USA. Great deal making! We should make deals that allay the fears on both sides. NATO can easily do that. They have no territorial ambitions in Russia. Providing that security to Ukraine has been dumped on by Trump who is now siding with the aggressor.

Of course we cannot go to war with Russia. That’s in no one’s interest. We ought though squeeze her remorselessly and freeze her economically and culturally.

Trump doesn’t have plans. He has reactions based on instinct. That the result is simple is true, but it’s also counterproductive and extremely dangerous.

 

[indianapalace85]

Wow, to make the type of personal comments on here about Trump you really should have direct firsthand experiences and not just media bullshit that has followed him around for a decade. Not 3 months ago the media were spinning a landslide victory for Harris and Biden was as sharp as a tact rhetoric and we know how that turned out.

Seeing Kamada up close and personal gives supporters the right to slander his footballing skills and allow us to ask the question why?

I'll preface the next comment IMHO. The US (not necessarily the world) has in general given a collective sigh of relief that the Biden years are behind us. The direction of travel was opposite to what most Americans wanted (including a significant percentage of Hispanics and black males). Based on the deep-rooted stance of most Americans it was a landslide by any metrics.

One month on and the contrast couldn't be any greater than the previous 4 years. Palace supporters wouldn't suddenly wax lyrical about Brighton and change allegiances if they pulled a few good results together. Same in politics!!!

Trump has stuck the boot in as he said he would on day 1. There are no overnight successes or failure so only a few weeks, months or even years will tell us how history plays out, I personally applaud the calls to action. but remain apprehensive how everything will play out (including Ukraine).

Whilst on one hand, yes, a few weeks and months is too early to commend or condemn the actions of any White House administration - I think in the case of Trump because he's not a normal respectable leader, is unpredictable, averages 25 lies every hour and has zero evidence of anything he ever claims, I think the alarm bells are rightly ringing.

In a few weeks, he's managed to blame plane crashes on disabled people, impose tariffs on all his allies and now come out kissing Putin's feet, whilst claiming BS on Zelensky and that Ukraine started the war. Hardly a respectable leader.

 

[Stirlingsays]

As well-intentioned and nostalgic as your points might be, I'm not sure how that plays out in practical terms.

At the end of the day, I would imagine a country's citizens will prefer a leader that doesn't give in to the enemy, rather than resign the last 3 years of bloodshed in vain.

Mmmm....Well, they should have an election and have parties offering different visions and be able to determine that choice.

If they vote to fight on, they fight on.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I bet who runs the Donbas bothers most Ukrainians. Which is rather more important and relevant than what bothers you. If it’s Putin what’s going to stop him moving west? Your trust that he won’t? I don’t think he is stupid. I think he is obsessed.

You need to distill the essence out of these to understand Putin’s ambitions. Plausible deniability being learned very early by every KGB operative:-

https://edition.cnn.com/2022/06/10/europe/russia-putin-empire-restoration-endgame-intl-cmd/index.html

Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ‘Soviet’ Russia

The world was stunned when Russia invaded Crimea, but should it have been, asks author and journalist Oliver Bullough.

www.bbc.co.uk

Putin’s dark designs: Restore the pre-1917 Russian empire

Leading Ukraine-Russia historian weighs in on why Putin moved against Ukraine, and NATO's best posture

news.ucr.edu

This is an extract from one speech referenced in those articles. It’s clear enough:-

“Peter the Great waged the Great Northern War for 21 years. On the face of it, he was at war with Sweden taking something away from it… He was not taking away anything, he was returning. This is how it was. The areas around Lake Ladoga, where St Petersburg was founded. When he founded the new capital, none of the European countries recognised this territory as part of Russia; everyone recognised it as part of Sweden. However, from time immemorial, the Slavs lived there along with the Finno-Ugric peoples, and this territory was under Russia’s control. The same is true of the western direction, Narva and his first campaigns. Why would he go there? He was returning and reinforcing, that is what he was doing.

Clearly, it fell to our lot to return and reinforce as well. And if we operate on the premise that these basic values constitute the basis of our existence, we will certainly succeed in achieving our goals.”

What's clear is that you made a claim based upon Putin giving one of his long winded history lessons.

Nothing in there about remaking the Soviet Union at all.

 

[Spindle]

Mmmm....Well, they should have an election and have parties offering different visions and be able to determine that choice.

If they vote to fight on, they fight on.

Who the feck has an election whilst at war?

 

[Spindle]

What's clear is that you made a claim based upon Putin giving one of his long winded history lessons.

They aren't really history lessons, they are ambitions. He's Soviet, was in dismay as the wall came down before his eyes in East Germany, he wants to restore it unquestionably.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Who the feck has an election whilst at war?

Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam...It's happened a lot....and as stated earlier, we had an election during 1945 while the second world was still going.

 

[indianapalace85]

If Churchill was as weak as many are claiming Zelensky should be, to cave into Russia's deal, then we'd be run by a Nazi dictatorship today.

 

[DANGERCLOSE]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1892577050591973484

 

[Spindle]

Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam...It's happened a lot....and as stated earlier, we had an election during 1945 while the second world was still going.

All 3 set up by the USA where the USA was an occupying force.

 

[Stirlingsays]

They aren't really history lessons, they are ambitions. He's Soviet, was in dismay as the wall came down before his eyes in East Germany, he wants to restore it unquestionably.

Again, where is the evidence for him wanting to restore the Soviet Union?.....he's literally criticised it many times and the early Putin was a reformer who wasn't against the west at all.

 

[Stirlingsays]

All 3 set up by the USA where the USA was an occupying force.

Well, that wouldn't be the case in Ukraine, though I'd imagine you'd have the UN in there or something.....Obviously elections would be part of some agreement.

 

[Spindle]

I dunno, the invasion of former soviet states perhaps? I did try to look for the kind of evidence you want but he never wrote it down so I guess that means you are right. It sounds though that this is the kind of logic you apply with parity across all arguments thankfully, because otherwise that would be an immense show of bias which is a real struggle to spot.

 

[Spindle]

Well, that wouldn't be the case in Ukraine, though I'd imagine you'd have the UN in there or something.....Obviously elections would be part of some agreement.

You know full well that Russia would massively interfere, with the backing of Trump by the sounds of it.

Ever see that video of pro-Russians bursting into the Georgian polling station to stuff the ballot box, right in front of the cameras? In late 2024....

 

[Stirlingsays]

I bet who runs the Donbas bothers most Ukrainians. Which is rather more important and relevant than what bothers you. If it’s Putin what’s going to stop him moving west? Your trust that he won’t? I don’t think he is stupid. I think he is obsessed.

Sure, but no one is telling Ukraine what to do here, we are all just pointlessly chewing the cud on the war of the day.

Of course we cannot go to war with Russia. That’s in no one’s interest. We ought though squeeze her remorselessly and freeze her economically and culturally.

Well, that's not going to happen.....they tried the economic bit and failed....culturally? That's just silly.

Trump doesn’t have plans. He has reactions based on instinct. That the result is simple is true, but it’s also counterproductive and extremely dangerous.

Well, his instincts are certainly pretty successful.....yours certainly aren't, if it weren't for people like yourself, with ridiculous levels of TDS, you wouldn't even have Trump in power.

You literally brought him back from the political graveyard.

It's like you really secretly wanted him back......So you could whine endlessly on here about it.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I dunno, the invasion of former soviet states perhaps? I did try to look for the kind of evidence you want but he never wrote it down so I guess that means you are right. It sounds though that this is the kind of logic you apply with parity across all arguments thankfully, because otherwise that would be an immense show of bias which is a real struggle to spot.

Hitler made it plain what he was going to do in 'My Struggle'.....the only surprise to anyone was the timing.

Putin has certainly criticised the Soviet Union in the past, but unless someone knows something I don't it's media hype that he intends to invade Europe.....it doesn't make sense anyway for several reasons. Modern Russia is not the Soviet Union. No, this was always about Ukraine and the ethnic Russian diaspora.

 

[Stirlingsays]

You know full well that Russia would massively interfere, with the backing of Trump by the sounds of it.

Ever see that video of pro-Russians bursting into the Georgian polling station to stuff the ballot box, right in front of the cameras? In late 2024....

Russia is corrupt and we all know it.

However, the Ukraine (also corrupt) that will vote is not going to have many pro Russians within it.....but that's not the same as agreeing to carry on a war they are losing.

Also, I can't imagine that they will have an election without a prior agreement with Russia and international supervision.

 

[Stirlingsays]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1892577050591973484

Yeah I heard about this as well.

I don't think the Minsk accords were taken that seriously by either side.

 

[Eaglehamster]

I honestly don't think it's childish at all.

I think those that support a war should be prepared to fight in it.....or do you only support others 'confronting bullies' for you? Rather a bit too easy to say I think.

As for Ukraine, well they press gang men off the street and force them onto the front line, they ban orthodox churches and all opposition opinions or parties to the war, suspend elections and before this war they were about as corrupt as Russia was......But I'm apparently meant to view them like France or something.

Like I say both Putin and Zelensky can jog on.

Ok so you don’t approve of confronting bullies. Now presumably you got your “press gang” story from one of your favoured internet sites?