War in Ukraine

[Wisbech Eagle]

NATO worked well when it stuck to its original premise of its words....North Atlantic Treaty Organization.

We aren't meant to be in Eastern Europe in border countries five miles drive to Moscow spending five billion to turn them.....then wondering why they start a war and acting all startled and shocked.

Some people just love a war, just as long as it isn't them getting droned in a trench.

It’s 534 miles from Kviv to Moscow! Not 5.

Here we have more apologies for the invasion of a sovereign state that’s weaker, just because they share a border and a cultural heritage.

Maybe you think it would be OK for the USA to invade Canada!

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Yeah, Trump is really going to be doing badly out of making deals with energy and mineral giant Russia.

Oh the crying he must be doing.

But us, we have the power of the virtue signal and that'll sure keep our energy bills low.

But oh hang on.....We must ensure that we like the people running the Donbas in Ukraine....Oh my god, lets send our lads to die so those who don't like Russia can feel good....

So if Trump joins in with the plunder of Ukraine that makes it all ok?

Great ally to have. Very trustworthy.

 

[Stirlingsays]

It’s 534 miles from Kviv to Moscow! Not 5.

Here we have more apologies for the invasion of a sovereign state that’s weaker, just because they share a border and a cultural heritage.

Maybe you think it would be OK for the USA to invade Canada!

I meant five hours drive.

And it's not 534 miles according to Copilot.

 

[Stirlingsays]

So if Trump joins in with the plunder of Ukraine that makes it all ok?

Great ally to have. Very trustworthy.

Another emotional argument.

Ukraine is now minus the land Russia took......far less land than it would have had if the 2022 peace deal was signed that people like yourself supported rejecting.....Now it has countless graveyards full of young men it needed, huge unpayable debts (lots of which I imagine will be written off), half its population left for Europe or Russia and about 20 more percent of its land gone.....Yeah, well played Corny.

No, I don't support Trump plundering Ukraine....Making deals with Russia, sure, where it benefits him.....his entire purpose and motivation is to improve the American economy and he's got two years to do it.

If I start to think about what's best for Ukraine from this point I just get a headache.....that country has been led down the primrose path by people who couldn't sign the cheques they issued.

 

[rob1969]

So if Trump joins in with the plunder of Ukraine that makes it all ok?

Great ally to have. Very trustworthy.

Simiar to the USSR rescuing Poland from the Germans in 1939/40.

 

[eaglesdare]

If you want to continue with the bear analogy, you also wouldn't bend over and let it pummel you anally either, as Trump appears willing to do.

The EU had their chance. While they were in a strong position they could have negotiated a better peace deal and have had years to get the deal done.

Now they and Ukraine are not as strong as they were. Trump has come in and is putting an offer on the table.

But go ahead and continue to virtue signal. It does not save any lives. Bigger compromise will have to be made than it would have a few years ago.

 

[Stirlingsays]

If you are a working class white family in certain parts of the country I should think your thoughts on Starmer's speech were pretty similar to Leo's here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891626292979589596

 

[Spindle]

As stated, the US were pumping billions into Ukraine to pull it away from Russian in direct interference. As the Nuland leak revealed the US were up to their neck in political manipulation and involvement in Ukraine towards the same aim.

And here is you talking about the same events as if they were organic.

I'm tired of your waffle.

As for the Minsk agreements, didn't Merkel state that they were used to rearm Ukraine, and wasn't Ukraine criticised by the UN for firing and shelling and breaking Minsk.....Maybe Russia did too, however, that's all very dodgey.

The bottom line is that we should have never have been in Ukraine and that if we hadn't have been obsessively pushing east looking to isolate Russia from its own slavic border country, then this war wouldn't have happened.

I think the part you choose to ignore is that you think that Putin wouldn't have wanted to take Ukraine anyway, like he did Georgia and Chechnya?? I don't know why you turn a blind eye to that. And next on that list, ultimately, would be the border EU states, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Sorry but it means believing the Kremlin, which is our enemy I'm afraid.

There is nothing wrong with allowing sovereign states to choose their own destiny, if not I assume you'd be fine with Argentina taking back the Falklands, Spain taking Gibraltar, give up NI to Ireland, France into the Channel Islands. And of course Germany can steamroll into Poland, "oops" see what happened there? According to Trumps logic, the Allied powers started WW2 because we provoked it with Versailles. Had we not done that everyone would live in happiness forever.

This is a short term move, it's going to bring short term gain for the USA but the cost will be huge because they are now pretty much untrustworthy on the World stage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see guerrilla war start out in Donbas and Crimea and terrorism in Moscow for many years going forwards because this absolutely is unacceptable to the Ukrainian people and I fear the reprisals Putin has in store. Peace my arse.


Hello btw, I got banned from the BBS because the place is intolerant of views outside of a very narrow scope, they have packs of trolls who have turned it that way.

 

[Spindle]

Now they and Ukraine are not as strong as they were. Trump has come in and is putting an offer on the table.

But go ahead and continue to virtue signal. It does not save any lives. Bigger compromise will have to be made than it would have a few years ago.

Unconditional surrender is not an offer. And I do blame Biden as much as the EU for NOT being far more ruthless with Russia, he was extremely weak. It was a great chance to crack them completely and they failed to press it. I didn't know what Trump would do though but frankly it's treason and it's shameful. They are going to just carve up Ukraine like the Soviets and Germans did to Poland in 41.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

I think the part you choose to ignore is that you think that Putin wouldn't have wanted to take Ukraine anyway, like he did Georgia and Chechnya?? I don't know why you turn a blind eye to that. And next on that list, ultimately, would be the border EU states, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Sorry but it means believing the Kremlin, which is our enemy I'm afraid.

There is nothing wrong with allowing sovereign states to choose their own destiny, if not I assume you'd be fine with Argentina taking back the Falklands, Spain taking Gibraltar, give up NI to Ireland, France into the Channel Islands. And of course Germany can steamroll into Poland, "oops" see what happened there? According to Trumps logic, the Allied powers started WW2 because we provoked it with Versailles. Had we not done that everyone would live in happiness forever.

This is a short term move, it's going to bring short term gain for the USA but the cost will be huge because they are now pretty much untrustworthy on the World stage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see guerrilla war start out in Donbas and Crimea and terrorism in Moscow for many years going forwards because this absolutely is unacceptable to the Ukrainian people and I fear the reprisals Putin has in store. Peace my arse.


Hello btw, I got banned from the BBS because the place is intolerant of views outside of a very narrow scope, they have packs of trolls who have turned it that way.

They're obviously not that confident in their views if challenges are so threatening.
Welcome, anyway!

 

[eaglesdare]

Unconditional surrender is not an offer. And I do blame Biden as much as the EU for NOT being far more ruthless with Russia, he was extremely weak. It was a great chance to crack them completely and they failed to press it. I didn't know what Trump would do though but frankly it's treason and it's shameful. They are going to just carve up Ukraine like the Soviets and Germans did to Poland in 41.

Okay then. Continue to virtue signal and let's keep the war going then. It's what you all seem to want.

 

[Eaglehamster]

Shouldn't you be packing your bags to go confront bullies in Russia or something.

Now it's chlldish remarks.

You read and believe that which sustains your narrative. Conveniently omitting all the skullduggery that Moscow has indulged in for years in their efforts to recover the Soviet Union. The vast majority of the people of the former satellite states do not want to live under Russian rule. Nor would you or would you?

Now the treacherous crook has formed an alliance with his equally vile hero, God help us.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I think the part you choose to ignore is that you think that Putin wouldn't have wanted to take Ukraine anyway, like he did Georgia and Chechnya?? I don't know why you turn a blind eye to that. And next on that list, ultimately, would be the border EU states, Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. Sorry but it means believing the Kremlin, which is our enemy I'm afraid.

Have I chosen to ignore that? No, in fact I've answered this point many times over the course of this conflict.

Is your point that Nato, after promising not to expand eastwards to Russia back when negotiating over East Germany shouldn't have been trusted by Russia? Surely not...

Latvia, Estonia, and Lithuania are all members of NATO. They joined the alliance on March 29, 2004. So what you have essentially said is that Putin is going to declare on NATO, which would be declaring WW3.

So you are making a massive projection with no evidence, as there hasn't been an attack on a Nato country by Russia since its formation. But instead you presumably wish to carry on a war with Russia on the off chance that it could....Ok, but I don't think that's likely.

There is nothing wrong with allowing sovereign states to choose their own destiny, if not I assume you'd be fine with Argentina taking back the Falklands, Spain taking Gibraltar, give up NI to Ireland, France into the Channel Islands. And of course Germany can steamroll into Poland, "oops" see what happened there? According to Trumps logic, the Allied powers started WW2 because we provoked it with Versailles. Had we not done that everyone would live in happiness forever.

Whether I agree with Argentina taking back the Falklands or not or those other situations makes no difference to anything. It comes down to a rational assessment of what's possible and what's likely if you fight or not fight and everything in-between.

For example, the state of the militaries and economies of Argentina and Britain at the time meant that while taking carriers down there was risky, once we landed troops on the island it was a foregone conclusion.....So that whole war was down to could we afford it?......Yes.....Could the war be contained....Yes (it wasn't even officially a war).....Could we protect the carriers?.....Yes, we probably would...So that war made sense....even though all wars are best avoided....and negotiations failed while we 'sailed' down there.

For example, I never said I had an issue with Ukraine fighting Russia to take back their land.....a pretty dim course of action though it was.....but entirely their right.

What I had an issue with was supporting a war against Russia by us, what we should have done was negotiate an end to the war in 2022. All of these positions are stored previously on Hol....I spoke about the lack of wisdom of this course of action back then, as did many others.

This is a short term move, it's going to bring short term gain for the USA but the cost will be huge because they are now pretty much untrustworthy on the World stage. And I wouldn't be surprised to see guerrilla war start out in Donbas and Crimea and terrorism in Moscow for many years going forwards because this absolutely is unacceptable to the Ukrainian people and I fear the reprisals Putin has in store. Peace my arse.

Are Saudi 'untrustworthy' on the World stage? Are Russia untrustworthy on the world stage? I think that you are perhaps over confident that the current socially liberal European opinion matters much short or medium term. The centralists in Germany are shortly going to be kicked out and replaced by the right, Macron's party is extremely weak in France and likely to be replaced by Le Penn in 27....Starmer himself....Well, four years is a long time I'll give him that but he's probably had the worst start in living memory.

America has significant economic power and simply put....Who are you replacing this trust with exactly? They aren't leaving Nato, they are re-aligning Nato. Even the attempt to sideline them because of not liking Trump is extreme self harm.

Hello btw, I got banned from the BBS because the place is intolerant of views outside of a very narrow scope, they have packs of trolls who have turned it that way.

Well welcome, whether things get heated or not you will find more tolerance for a difference of opinion here.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Unconditional surrender is not an offer. And I do blame Biden as much as the EU for NOT being far more ruthless with Russia, he was extremely weak. It was a great chance to crack them completely and they failed to press it. I didn't know what Trump would do though but frankly it's treason and it's shameful. They are going to just carve up Ukraine like the Soviets and Germans did to Poland in 41.

So your contention is what? That America declared war on Russia and put troops and Nato on the ground to kick Russia out of Ukraine....a non Nato country?

Aside from the WW3 aspect and how unpopular this would have been in America itself and incredibly risky I think your contention that Putin would have just folded is extremely unlikely.

But apparently you think that America should suffer body bags for Ukraine......Well, that was never going to happen whether it was Biden, Trump or Walter Mondale.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Now it's chlldish remarks.

You read and believe that which sustains your narrative. Conveniently omitting all the skullduggery that Moscow has indulged in for years in their efforts to recover the Soviet Union. The vast majority of the people of the former satellite states do not want to live under Russian rule. Nor would you or would you?

Now the treacherous crook has formed an alliance with his equally vile hero, God help us.

I honestly don't think it's childish at all.

I think those that support a war should be prepared to fight in it.....or do you only support others 'confronting bullies' for you? Rather a bit too easy to say I think.

As for Ukraine, well they press gang men off the street and force them onto the front line, they ban orthodox churches and all opposition opinions or parties to the war, suspend elections and before this war they were about as corrupt as Russia was......But I'm apparently meant to view them like France or something.

Like I say both Putin and Zelensky can jog on.

 

[Spindle]

Okay then. Continue to virtue signal and let's keep the war going then. It's what you all seem to want.

You'll need to explain what you mean. I've given you equivalences of other territories and some decent reasoning of motives, of hypocrisy, but you've just called it virtue signalling. That makes no sense at all, it's not virtue signalling to say that Russia has ideals on former Soviet states and that Putin would've invaded anyway, it's not virtue signalling to tell you that Russia is considered our enemy, nor to point out that this invasion wasn't the first, nor that had Biden had balls Putin could've been utterly crushed without putting a Western boot on the ground.

One thing is for sure, Putin can't believe his luck.

 

[Spindle]

So your contention is what? That America declared war on Russia and put troops and Nato on the ground to kick Russia out of Ukraine....a non Nato country?

Aside from the WW3 aspect and how unpopular this would have been in America itself and incredibly risky I think your contention that Putin would have just folded is extremely unlikely.

But apparently you think that America should suffer body bags for Ukraine......Well, that was never going to happen whether it was Biden, Trump or Walter Mondale.

Well you are putting words in my mouth. I didn't offer a solution however I'm unconvinced of your knowledge on some of the weapons given your suggestion that the Falklands was a 'foregone conclusion'. I don't wish to patronise but that war was unbelievably lucky for Britain, there are several "VAR decisions" that went against the Argentines, and any of those could've caused us considerable issues, more likely a total loss. Just look up the Battle of San Carlos and that may give you an idea of the massive good fortune we had. (I don't wish to be rude on that btw, maybe you were there I don't know)

As for stopping Russia, a no fly zone would've been enough to force Russia's hand, you must've seen what the "bear" was really like, beaten back by Western castoff out of date weapons (plus a few bits of good kit which has been hamstrung in use). There is a lovely story of a big engagement in Syria between Russian forces and an American encampment which is not talked about because the Russians trying to take the US FOB were totally destroyed in a single engagement, all of them. Russia never mentioned it.

All of the countries that you talk about were swallowed by the Soviets post WW2, they've every right to exist on their own should they wish to and join NATO because they want to be away from Russia, they are not Russian. Russia not liking the expansion is not something I care about because I'm British and support our side, so stuff Putin. Ukraine has had 300 years of problems with Russia, this isn't new, and they wanted to join us because Putin coming back was inevitable - nobody provoked it, and if the other countries weren't in NATO Putin would do the same to them again. All this peace talk is imaginary, and Ukrainians will carry on regardless. I'm just saddened that for all the things Trump has said that many have been crying out for, this isn't one of them, and it's not a solution.

Thanks for the welcome, I can say that the BBS has declined and villainised anyone with any kind of opinion which isn't the kind the BBC like to hand out, and it's their loss. FWIW the language they use there now for this site is that it is basically extreme right wing and fascist. I've been watching for a month and not seeing that, looks mixed. Trust me many here would be instantly banned.

I miss the anti-Brighton talk though ngl

 

[DanH]

If you are a working class white family in certain parts of the country I should think your thoughts on Starmer's speech were pretty similar to Leo's here.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891626292979589596

Ah good, another poster boy for the online right making jokes about the supposed lack of freedom of speech in the UK. Who also apparently thinks we shouldn't stand up to a country where freedom of speech literally doesn't exist and dissenters against the regime find themselves taking a lot of falls out of high windows, in planes that crash or winding up dead in a prison cell.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

I meant five hours drive.

And it's not 534 miles according to Copilot.

View attachment 663

I specifically said from Kyiv to Moscow. The distance from any border to its neighbour being nothing. Quite obviously.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I specifically said from Kyiv to Moscow. The distance from any border to its neighbour being nothing. Quite obviously.

Well, I said to its capital....but right, but you were the one who thought the point was worth responding too.

It highlights the risks and madness of to inch Ukraine away from Russia covertly. The likelihood of a response amid warning upon warning starting from 2008 from Putin when Bush first started involvement in Ukraine.