War in Ukraine

[Stirlingsays]

Ukraine became a sovereign state when the Soviet Union collapsed. Something Putin has never accepted. A clear majority of the Ukrainian people approved of that change and showed their desire to build ties with the west and not to return to their previous status. Helping them was, and is, providing support, not interference. Putin is who is interfering with the rights of a freed people to remain free via self determination.

Only in the Russian speaking east and Crimea was there any desire to resurrect ties to Moscow and that was by far not universal. You can speak Russian but think and bleed Ukrainian.

The highlighted section is just inaccurate.

What Ukraine wanted....which was perfectly normal was to have relations with both Europe and Russia and avoid conflict. Unfortunately they weren't allowed that option and as soon as they rejected the EU trade deal they underwent threats from the US...all documented. The US essentially won the bribery tussle and with proxies overthrew the government for an anti Russian one and so the east with Russian backing revolted.

The truth is that Ukraine wasn't one country on this but two....pro western in the west and somewhat so in the centre and pro Russian in the east.

We shouldn't have been there and neocons have made a giant mess and now we in Europe are going to be left holding the baby.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

But unfortunately you don't decide the parameters of any thread. Once again, who stands to gain the most from this "misinformation"? A daily newspaper or the government of another country which isn't known for being open and honest?

I don’t decide the parameters but when I address an answer to a particular subject that’s the only matter it concerns.

So there’s no “once again” when you are introducing a different concept.

Newspapers spin. They don’t, or shouldn’t, spread misinformation. If they did their lawyers would have failed.

 

[cryrst]

Peace brings more death but less than continuing a war.

 

[eaglesdare]

No issue at all if that is truthful. Your posts on here have been consistently pro-Russian/anti-Ukraine.

My posts are Pro Peace. 👍🏻

I simply have called out the ridiculousness of the war and how it could have been avoided in the first place. Also how it could have ended years ago.

Now we are left with it ending with Ukraine most likely loosing parts of their country, having to rebuild and having to repay massive debt / providing minerals to the US as payback. And still not being able to join NATO. So what was the point in it all? Needless loss of life in the end.

 

[DanH]

My posts are Pro Peace. 👍🏻

I simply have called out the ridiculousness of the war and how it could have been avoided in the first place. Also how it could have ended years ago.

Now we are left with it ending with Ukraine most likely loosing parts of their country, having to rebuild and having to repay massive debt / providing minerals to the US as payback. And still not being able to join NATO. So what was the point in it all? Needless loss of life in the end.

So how does this happen without simply letting Putin do whatever he wants?

 

[Teddy Eagle]

I don’t decide the parameters but when I address an answer to a particular subject that’s the only matter it concerns.

So there’s no “once again” when you are introducing a different concept.

Newspapers spin. They don’t, or shouldn’t, spread misinformation. If they did their lawyers would have failed.

But you don't decide what other people discuss. If you don't deem it relevant then ignore it.
For someone so concerned about outside influence in politics you're very sanguine about the Chinese.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The highlighted section is just inaccurate.

What Ukraine wanted....which was perfectly normal was to have relations with both Europe and Russia and avoid conflict. Unfortunately they weren't allowed that option and as soon as they rejected the EU trade deal they underwent threats from the US...all documented. The US essentially won the bribery tussle and with proxies overthrew the government for an anti Russian one and so the east with Russian backing revolted.

The truth is that Ukraine wasn't one country on this but two....pro western in the west and somewhat so in the centre and pro Russian in the east.

We shouldn't have been there and neocons have made a giant mess and now we in Europe are going to be left holding the baby.

Untrue. The Ukrainian Parliament approved the EU trade deal. It was Yanukovych who refused to ratify it under pressure from Moscow, which ultimately led to his removal and his flight to Russia.

This idea that there are two Ukraines, pro west and pro Russia split geographically, is untrue. There are plenty in the east who, whilst speaking Russian, are emotionally Ukrainian but very few in the west who speak Ukrainian but are emotionally Russian. Given a national election Ukraine votes for independence and for building ties in Europe. Only in the far east is there a desire to maintain strong links with Moscow. A relationship for sure. They are a neighbour who you need to keep on good terms with but not be dominated by.

 

[eaglesdare]

So how does this happen without simply letting Putin do whatever he wants?

Maybe not join NATO for a start which was agreed on years ago 🤷🏻‍♂️

Basically be smart and don't poke the bear.

We have gone over this way to many times and for years.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Untrue. The Ukrainian Parliament approved the EU trade deal. It was Yanukovych who refused to ratify it under pressure from Moscow, which ultimately led to his removal and his flight to Russia.

Removing a democratically elected government because they didn't do what your EU/US backers wanted was madness....bought and paid for, 5 billion over years and years of meddling.

This idea that there are two Ukraines, pro west and pro Russia split geographically, is untrue. There are plenty in the east who, whilst speaking Russian, are emotionally Ukrainian but very few in the west who speak Ukrainian but are emotionally Russian. Given a national election Ukraine votes for independence and for building ties in Europe. Only in the far east is there a desire to maintain strong links with Moscow. A relationship for sure. They are a neighbour who you need to keep on good terms with but not be dominated by.

Dude, what are you talking about??? Units in the Donbas literally revolted and started fighting. You are re-inventing a history here.

The clips from the time have literally been posted on this thread minutes ago....haven't you watched them.

Of course you haven't.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

But you don't decide what other people discuss. If you don't deem it relevant then ignore it.
For someone so concerned about outside influence in politics you're very sanguine about the Chinese.

Then kindly don’t reply to my posts but post a separate one to avoid confusion and the need for me to point out where it has arisen.

I am not any more sanguine about the Chinese than I am about any authoritarian state. As I have already made clear in this thread.

I do though have more admiration for them than many here appear to have. The progress they have made during my lifetime is staggering. Most of their people, so far as I can tell, seem happy with their lives. I wouldn’t want to live there but that’s because I have lived here and would find the restrictions difficult, but if that’s what you are used to you won’t notice.

In many ways I am much concerned about the USA in 2025 than with China.

 

[eaglesdare]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1891742711268470874

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Then kindly don’t reply to my posts but post a separate one to avoid confusion and the need for me to point out where it has arisen.

I am not any more sanguine about the Chinese than I am about any authoritarian state. As I have already made clear in this thread.

I do though have more admiration for them than many here appear to have. The progress they have made during my lifetime is staggering. Most of their people, so far as I can tell, seem happy with their lives. I wouldn’t want to live there but that’s because I have lived here and would find the restrictions difficult, but if that’s what you are used to you won’t notice.

In many ways I am much concerned about the USA in 2025 than with China.

What's the point when you'll only try to define the boundaries a different thread.
"...if that's what you are used to you won't notice" Really? After a while people don't mind living in a dictatorship?
Your concern isn't America: it's Trump/Musk/Vance.

 

[DanH]

Maybe not join NATO for a start which was agreed on years ago 🤷🏻‍♂️

Basically be smart and don't poke the bear.

We have gone over this way to many times and for years.

Oh so just the same old tired trope we hear over and over again from the online right. No idea why Russia’s wishes seem to trump the rest of Europe’s with that side of the political spectrum.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Removing a democratically elected government because they didn't do what your EU/US backers wanted was madness....bought and paid for, 5 billion over years and years of meddling.



Dude, what are you talking about??? Units in the Donbas literally revolted and started fighting. You are re-inventing a history here.

The clips from the time have literally been posted on this thread minutes ago....haven't you watched them.

Of course you haven't.

What on earth are you talking about. It was the Parliament who removed the President because he refused to do their will, but bowed to Moscow instead. Nobody removed a democratically elected government! They stood up for themselves. Presidents aren’t government. Something Trump needs to remember.

Yes units backed and armed by Moscow revolted and were then directly supported. That has nothing whatsoever with the point I made. Which was by far not all in the east support Moscow, even if the majority might, whilst almost none in the west do.

Yes I watched the clip. It shows the results of the protests and the attempts to find compromises. Nothing at all in conflict with what I have said. There’s nothing new there.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Oh so just the same old tired trope we hear over and over again from the online right. No idea why Russia’s wishes seem to trump the rest of Europe’s with that side of the political spectrum.

Don't say trump.

 

[Stirlingsays]

What on earth are you talking about. It was the Parliament who removed the President because he refused to do their will, but bowed to Moscow instead. Nobody removed a democratically elected government! They stood up for themselves. Presidents aren’t government. Something Trump needs to remember.

Yes units backed and armed by Moscow revolted and were then directly supported. That has nothing whatsoever with the point I made. Which was by far not all in the east support Moscow, even if the majority might, whilst almost none in the west do.

Yes I watched the clip. It shows the results of the protests and the attempts to find compromises. Nothing at all in conflict with what I have said. There’s nothing new there.

The clip literally tells you that once the EU deal was rejected.....something that was in the President's power, the US government threatened sanctions....and here's you still claiming it's all organic....jeez do you ever stop lying?

You are covering for our meddling and trying to deflect blame for the disaster that overtook Ukraine.

Armed by Moscow? Again, what utter nonsense, these were Ukrainian units in barracks in the east of the country, they had their own arms.....and you seemingly can't concede that these people were heavily pro Russian....even though they fought and died. They literally took over lots of East Ukraine, Russia came in as mercenaries once they started getting beaten and then we had the Minsk agreement.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

What's the point when you'll only try to define the boundaries a different thread.
"...if that's what you are used to you won't notice" Really? After a while people don't mind living in a dictatorship?
Your concern isn't America: it's Trump/Musk/Vance.

I don’t define any boundaries other than the content of my own posts.

If people grow up in a dictatorship then they know nothing else unless they travel abroad. Only a small percentage do in China but even then they understand where their limits lie. Do they mind? If people are happy and well provided for why would they?

My concern is certainly the direction of the USA which seems headed only one way.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

I don’t define any boundaries other than the content of my own posts.

If people grow up in a dictatorship then they know nothing else unless they travel abroad. Only a small percentage do in China but even then they understand where their limits lie. Do they mind? If people are happy and well provided for why would they?

My concern is certainly the direction of the USA which seems headed only one way.

Well, you do because it's others posts you're commenting on.
Are people living in dictatorships happy and well provided for? Probably news to most of them. The clue is in the name.

 

[eaglesdare]

Oh so just the same old tired trope we hear over and over again from the online right. No idea why Russia’s wishes seem to trump the rest of Europe’s with that side of the political spectrum.

An ideal world is where Ukraine can do what it wants. Have a referendum and join the EU / Nato if it wants. And I would fully support it.

Alas it is not an ideal world. Doing stupid things to provoke a big nation like Russia is not a good idea. You know full well Russia is not a small country. It's a big player in the world.

Why would you want to provoke a bully?

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The clip literally tells you that once the EU deal was rejected.....something that was in the President's power, the US government threatened sanctions....and here's you still claiming it's all organic....jeez do you ever stop lying?

You are covering for our meddling and trying to deflect blame for the disaster that overtook Ukraine.

Armed by Moscow? Again, what utter nonsense, these were Ukrainian units in barracks in the east of the country, they had their own arms.....which you apparently can't concede were heavily pro Russian. They literally took over lots of East Ukraine, Russia came in as mercenaries once they started getting beaten and then we had the Minsk agreement.

I had never before had any need to find the Ukrainian constitution. Here it is:-

CONSTITUTION OF UKRAINE

The responsibilities of the President come towards the end and it would take a lawyer to determine which clause trumps another. They must both enact the decisions of the parliament and revoke them. I assume though always by request. What’s clear though is that the President is the Head of State, responsible for foreign affairs, but that the Parliament not only make the laws but can remove the President via impeachment, requiring a super majority to do so.

Which they did. Meaning an overwhelming majority wanted rid of him.

Is it any wonder sanctions were threatened? If a President refuses to enact the will of the people as expressed through their representatives then their friends help.

Of course the eastern units used their own arms to start with but no army fights without resupply and Moscow resupplied. How else could they continue?

The Minsk agreements? There were two, neither respected by Putin. Russia were involved from day 1 in the eastern states, provoking, supplying and then getting directly involved. No doubt you will claim this is all just western spin and only Putin tells the truth:-

Minsk agreements - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org