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War in Ukraine

Russia will seek guarantees that Nato will exclude Ukraine from membership and that Ukraine will remain neutral in any peace deal, a Russian deputy foreign minister said.

"We will demand that ironclad security guarantees become part of this agreement," Alexander Grushko told Russian media outlet Izvestia.

"Part of these guarantees should be the neutral status of Ukraine, the refusal of Nato countries to accept it into the alliance," he said.
 
Spindle said:
You realise that with that attitude Putin would just pile in, because he knows you won't resist.
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Why should I give a feck about the outcome of one particular war on this planet? There are always several to choose from that no one gives a damn about.

I looked at this war near the start, it was obvious that Russia held the main advantages....Unlike some on this forum I wasn't one cheerleading for this war.....which led Ukraine to destruction so that the US state department of the time could play geopolitics.

Ukraine chose their path 2008-2014......Their politicians decided to take the larger brown envelopes the west were offering because they are corrupt.

'It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be its friend is fatal' (Kissinger)

In other words, if you are going to get involved in a war with democracies then you have one term in which to win that war. America was never interested in body bags for Ukraine and I suggest that if Starmer thinks that the British public will accept body bags....then frankly he's stupid and despite opposing him on nearly everything he's clearly not dim.

This expectation to fight Russia because 'Putin bad' is nuts.....but once again, all the chest thumpers start living their principles and get out there rather than encourage others to lose their lives in a war that gains nothing other than virtue signalling......Virtue signalling our way into ever deeper poverty.

That's the main point....there is zero gain for us in this war.
 
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Spindle said:
I already said, get me strapped into that F16
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If you wanted that why aren't you in the military?

If you actually want to fight you have to start at what you are qualified for.....You don't get to fly jets in combat missions because of a computer simulation......though I recognise that some of them are very good.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Why should I give a feck about the outcome of one particular war on this planet? There are always several to choose from that no one gives a damn about.

I looked at this war near the start, it was obvious that Russia held the main advantages....Unlike some on this forum I wasn't one cheerleading for this war.....which led Ukraine to destruction so that the US state department of the time could play geopolitics.

Ukraine choose their path 2008-2014......Their politicians decided to take the larger brown envelopes the west were offering because they are corrupt.

'It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be it's friend is fatal' (Kissinger)

In other words, if you are going to get involved in a war with democracies then you have one term in which to win that war. America was never interested in body bags for Ukraine and I suggest that if Starmer thinks that the British public will accept body bags....then frankly he's stupid and despite opposing him on nearly everything he's clearly not dim.

This expectation to fight Russia because 'Putin bad' is nuts.....but once again, all the chest thumpers start living their principles and get out there rather than encourage others to lose their lives in a war that gains nothing other than virtue signalling......Virtue signalling our way into ever deeper poverty.

That's the main point....there is zero gain for us in this war.
Click to expand...
There is so much that is wrong with this approach, on so many levels, it could have come straight from the Oval Office.

This is not just any old war that has no impact on us. It’s a war on our eastern border perpetrated by an aggressive leader who has stated aims of reestablishing a former Empire, has a track record of ignoring agreements and who sees compromise and fairness as weakness.

That Ukraine itself wanted to resist aligned with our interests but was never the primary reason why resistance is necessary. Our own survival is that reason.

There was never going to be a “gain” for us. It was always only ever going to be costly. That though doesn’t mean there is no benefit. This isn’t trying to treat everything in life as a business opportunity, as the current US President seems to believe is the only way to conduct international relations.

Now we, and Ukraine, are being forced to be pragmatic. What the short term outcome is remains unclear but the mid term outcome is much more obvious. Unless and until the USA can reestablish itself as a trustworthy and reliable partner again we are going to have to find new partnerships whilst keeping the old strings working below the political levels.

That’s going to both cost us and ultimately hasten the decline of the USA and enable China to more quickly replace it. We will have no choice other than to start looking east rather than west. Initially just to our immediate east and south but ultimately towards the far east.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Why should I give a feck about the outcome of one particular war on this planet? There are always several to choose from that no one gives a damn about.

I looked at this war near the start, it was obvious that Russia held the main advantages....Unlike some on this forum I wasn't one cheerleading for this war.....which led Ukraine to destruction so that the US state department of the time could play geopolitics.

Ukraine chose their path 2008-2014......Their politicians decided to take the larger brown envelopes the west were offering because they are corrupt.

'It may be dangerous to be America's enemy, but to be its friend is fatal' (Kissinger)

In other words, if you are going to get involved in a war with democracies then you have one term in which to win that war. America was never interested in body bags for Ukraine and I suggest that if Starmer thinks that the British public will accept body bags....then frankly he's stupid and despite opposing him on nearly everything he's clearly not dim.

This expectation to fight Russia because 'Putin bad' is nuts.....but once again, all the chest thumpers start living their principles and get out there rather than encourage others to lose their lives in a war that gains nothing other than virtue signalling......Virtue signalling our way into ever deeper poverty.

That's the main point....there is zero gain for us in this war.
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That very much depended on the American reaction. Nato troops could have done several jobs not on the frontline that would've been a big help such as Bus driver, loader, trainer, trench digger etc.Thus freeing up Ukrainians to fight.Also the weapons could have been more plentiful.
 
Officially putting Nato troops in Ukraine.....which isn't in Nato.....would have subjected them to attack as Russia have said many times, Belarus also threatened to involve themselves in any escalation. No country has been willing to do that.

Unofficially Nato countries have had trainers and military in Ukraine since 2022. Europe has a not insignificant amount of people killed already because of this and you will at some point find that out after the war.

Ukraine had have a lot of funding and a lot of weapons.....and they have sold a fair amount of those weapons....which will be a problem for a long time to come. Ukraine was a very corrupt country before the war and nothing changed....The US gave them money without congress oversight for an audit for a reason......because bribery within that culture is how things are done.

Sure, it's been said many times before......If you ignore the nuclear aspect then US/Nato if it had decided to pay the blood price and had a full blown war with Russia they could probably have pushed it out of Ukraine....I also said this at the start. However, as was clearly said at the start this was never on the cards. The sensible thing to do was to close the war down when the chance happened in 2022.
 
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When you looked into why Russia was expected to win this war the main advantages are as follows:

More manpower
Air superiority overall
Ability to bomb all of Ukraine, while Ukraine can't hit Russia's rear production facilities
A better logistics situation with experience with homogeneous weapons systems
Significantly more artillery
More ammo
More military production capacity
The same existential motivation that Ukraine has

It was obvious from the start that collapsing the Russian economy was the best hope....just like thinking they wouldn't go to war in the first place all these were miscalculations.

However, while America wanted Ukraine to win, they also knew that this war would help them in terms of dividing Russian energy from Europe and keeping the European continent divided......What they really didn't want and didn't count on was a Russia/China Brics alliance.

Part of Trump's motivation is better relations with Russia and reducing cold war tensions as BRICs is a significant threat to dollar dominance....yeah, suspect he wants peace but I think other motivation are stronger.....A increasing BRICs where other countries don't buy American debt means they are fecked.
 
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Wisbech Eagle said:
There is so much that is wrong with this approach, on so many levels, it could have come straight from the Oval Office.

This is not just any old war that has no impact on us. It’s a war on our eastern border perpetrated by an aggressive leader who has stated aims of reestablishing a former Empire, has a track record of ignoring agreements and who sees compromise and fairness as weakness.

That Ukraine itself wanted to resist aligned with our interests but was never the primary reason why resistance is necessary. Our own survival is that reason.

There was never going to be a “gain” for us. It was always only ever going to be costly. That though doesn’t mean there is no benefit. This isn’t trying to treat everything in life as a business opportunity, as the current US President seems to believe is the only way to conduct international relations.

Now we, and Ukraine, are being forced to be pragmatic. What the short term outcome is remains unclear but the mid term outcome is much more obvious. Unless and until the USA can reestablish itself as a trustworthy and reliable partner again we are going to have to find new partnerships whilst keeping the old strings working below the political levels.

That’s going to both cost us and ultimately hasten the decline of the USA and enable China to more quickly replace it. We will have no choice other than to start looking east rather than west. Initially just to our immediate east and south but ultimately towards the far east.
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Errr, what happened to The North Sea, Netherlands, Germany, Denmark, Sweden and Poland?........
 
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