War in Ukraine

[Stirlingsays]

Interesting, are you suggesting this was staged?

I don't think so, I think the plan was to put Ukraine into a box but it backfired.

I think it reflects that punchy non conventional approach that Trump does.....Was it staged? Possibly or maybe they just don't care enough about diplomacy. It was raw and I didn't like it....sure, I think that's valid to criticise.

 

[eaglesdare]

This makes zero sense. You just celebrated this disaster of a meeting, which will only lead to continuation as things stand, but it's me on continuation?

I don't think you understand just how much more powerful NATO is with conventional weapons fwiw.

Trump has already threatened to pull funding, troops and weapons from NATO. If zelensky does not get his act together fast NATO and the rest are in big trouble. Trump has already got buy in from EU leaders and zelensky has just messed it up.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Interesting Vance threw a grenade into the room with Starmer yesterday too about free speech. Maybe looking for a reaction. Two tier kier handled it well in that case.

Obviously I fully agree with Vance on how free speech has gone here and in Europe generally......but yes, Starmer has impressed me diplomatically. He would make a good diplomat.....it's his internal politics that I don't like.

 

[eaglesdare]

Obviously I fully agree with Vance on how free speech has gone here and in Europe generally......but yes, Starmer has impressed me diplomatically. He would make a good diplomat.....it's his internal politics that I don't like.

Yes I completely agree.

 

[Matov]

Could not agree with you more. Trump is worthless and an overt bully. ***k him.

Depends. Trump is a man who knows he holds all the cards. Which the point. Europe has effectively sold its soul, or rather a very specific political class have. Let the US state department pay for all its defence, then hid behind its coat tails as it provoked and prodded Russia for no apparent reason other than it seems to be something many European establishments have always done.

One thing I never got about the entire 'Remain' supporting classes in the UK and the wider EU bitch boys on the continent was why it was so anti-Russian.

Imagine a genuine European Union. One that actually embraces Russia. Imagine what that entity would look like? The resources it could harness? The collective intelligence it could nurture? The culture, the philosophy, the industry, the inventiveness. It is staggering.

And yet we now have this? This Ukraine-Russia tragedy has led to the deaths of untold amounts of beautiful European people. For what?

If people genuinely want to be Pro-European then a Europe that truly embraces its Russian family is the only way forward. Then the US, China and any other Empire in the world can kiss our collective arses.

It could be f***ing immense.

But it won't. Because the arseholes in charge would rather wave Rainbow flags.

 

[Spindle]

Trump has stated that he will defend Nato.

The whole Ukraine situation wasn't one that he agreed with from the start in 2022, so to complain that he didn't agree with the Biden approach is ignoring the position of many people who spoke against it.....just like our media ignored them as with covid, but it represented a lot of people, especially in the US.....we have been acting like we are at war with Russia.

Trump will make a deal with Putin.....If Europe or Ukraine refuse that deal then the fighting won't stop until they decide on a deal themselves. It could get us all killed.

I regard this whole thing as a denial of reality.

It goes back further by far, Putin never stopped, so all this NATO aggression is Russian spin. Biden was a prick, he could've had Russia crushed years ago, he was weak on him, given them a slap then gone to do a deal.

We didn't see Vance ripping into Poots did we?

Anyway, Trump has to go back again, he can't just cut Ukraine off and let Putin have it all.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Could not agree with you more. Trump is worthless and an overt bully. ***k him.

We can't.

The consequences would screw us economically and you aren't going to get agreement in Europe to risk WW3.....Italy won't do it, several countries won't send troops.....We would just be getting our own troops killed for nothing.

What people have to accept is that America isn't a social liberal country...well not for this administration anyway and it differs with Europe's leaders on several fronts.....Europe is essentially socially liberal and that brings it into problems with Trump.

 

[Stirlingsays]

It goes back further by far, Putin never stopped, so all this NATO aggression is Russian spin. Biden was a prick, he could've had Russia crushed years ago, he was weak on him, given them a slap then gone to do a deal.

We didn't see Vance ripping into Poots did we?

Anyway, Trump has to go back again, he can't just cut Ukraine off and let Putin have it all.

Didn't you just accuse Eagle of being childish?

I have never agreed with this aggressive approach to Russia.....This Nuland approach is exactly what brought us here. It never had full agreement and Biden had his chance, failed and now it's gone.

Same as with Vietnam, democracies don't do long wars, because different parties have different opinions.

 

[Mstrobez]

To verbally attack the President of a country that was illegally invaded, 2 on 1, when English isn’t his first language, is truly contemptible and those defending it, irrespective of anything else, are shameless.

 

[Stirlingsays]

To verbally attack the President of a country that was illegally invaded, 2 on 1, when English isn’t his first language, is truly contemptible and those defending it, irrespective of anything else, are shameless.

I think we can agree that this isn't how things should be done.

However, this is about judgement. If you get yourself into a position when you rely upon foreign countries to enable you to fight wars who won't declare war themselves.....You are always on a timer.

It's why I and many of us argued so strongly for a deal in 2022.

 

[totoshkin]

We can't.

The consequences would screw us economically and you aren't going to get agreement in Europe to risk WW3.....Italy won't do it, several countries won't send troops.....We would just be getting our own troops killed for nothing.

What people have to accept is that America isn't a social liberal country...well not for this administration anyway and it differs with Europe's leaders on several fronts.....Europe is essentially socially liberal and brings it into problems.

Looking at the complete farce this afternoon it is clear to me that it was staged and very badly. Trump and Vance planned the open humiliation of Ukraine in advance of the meeting and Putin will be as amazed as the rest of us are.

 

[Spindle]

Didn't you just accuse Eagle of being childish?

I have never agreed with this aggressive approach to Russia.....This Nuland approach is exactly what brought us here. It never had full agreement and Biden had his chance, failed and now it's gone.

Same as with Vietnam, democracies don't do long wars, because different parties have different opinions.

Childish? Putin is a gangster. People are making some claims as if we could've put an arm around this man and skipped into the sunset. It was never on and never will be with him.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Looking at the complete farce this afternoon it is clear to me that it was staged and very badly. Trump and Vance planned the open humiliation of Ukraine in advance of the meeting and Putin will be as amazed as the rest of us are.

'Confused? You won’t be after this episode of Soap!'

But in this soap opera people are dying every day.

 

[totoshkin]

And by the look of things tonight Putin may have won.

 

[Matov]

It goes back further by far, Putin never stopped, so all this NATO aggression is Russian spin. Biden was a prick, he could've had Russia crushed years ago, he was weak on him, given them a slap then gone to do a deal.

We didn't see Vance ripping into Poots did we?

Anyway, Trump has to go back again, he can't just cut Ukraine off and let Putin have it all.

Why would we want to 'crush' Russia? What advantage does that offer the UK? This is the bit I never got. Surely if you want Europe to be a huge success story then embracing Russia is the solution? Now personally I subscribe to the view that the Anglo World, starting with our own FO has sort, ever since the creation of modern Germany in 1871, to basically f*** Europe over by constantly seeking to screw over relations between Germany and Russia.

This entire debacle in Ukraine was sparked because Germany and Russia had the audacity to want to lay a pipe line (Nord Stream 2) between them both which would cut Ukraine out of the loop. Which in turn would have stopped a lot of rich people, from a mix of the Anglo Intelligence Agencies, the Democrat Political establishment and the usual array of Ukrainians crooks from getting even richer.

That is it. This is what people wave stupid yellow and blue flags for. f***ing idiots, every single one of them. Played.

And now throwing their toys out of the pram because Trump decides to pull the rug.

 

[totoshkin]

And by the look of things tonight Putin may have won.

Unless this is all part of a cunning plan

 

[Stirlingsays]

Childish? Putin is a gangster. People are making some claims as if we could've put an arm around this man and skipped into the sunset. It was never on and never will be with him.

Zelensky is no angel....Lira died in that prison.

Nevertheless we deal with gangster regimes all over the world. I find it quaint that suddenly we are expected to go to war with regimes we don't like.

Plenty of wars around the world going on that we completely ignore all the time.

 

[Stirlingsays]

And by the look of things tonight Putin may have won.

This is the problem, what exactly are you proposing we do?

Ukraine has been losing roughly 10 to 20 square kilometres of territory for a long time now. You just don't get told on the mainstream news. No one is arguing over a winning war here. It's running out of soldiers, many of whom are conscripts....some of whom are dragged off the street.

What exactly are you think America should do.....just continue to pay to watch Ukraine be completely destroyed.

They want to asset strip them just as much as Russia does....the money aspect of this war gets ignored from all angles......this goodies and baddies thing is for the birds.

 

[Matov]

Zelensky is no angel....Lira died in that prison.

Nevertheless we deal with gangster regimes all over the world. I find it quaint that suddenly we are expected to go to war with regimes we don't like.

Plenty of wars around the world going on that we completely ignore all the time.

Why is Putin a 'gangster'?

As opposed to us? The UK is now literally nothing more than the worlds biggest money laundry. We allow the worlds major criminals to come here and put all their wealth into British banks. The Channel Islands, the Isle of Man, the various dependencies in the Caribbean.

Any single one of us can see the evidence with our own two eyes every day by just walking down your nearest high street and counting how many empty 'Turkish' barbers there are. Or take-away restaurants with bored looking illegals behind the counter.

The UK is literally an organised crime group. That is it.

 

[Spindle]

Why would we want to 'crush' Russia? What advantage does that offer the UK? This is the bit I never got. Surely if you want Europe to be a huge success story then embracing Russia is the solution? Now personally I subscribe to the view that the Anglo World, starting with our own FO has sort, ever since the creation of modern Germany in 1871, to basically f*** Europe over by constantly seeking to screw over relations between Germany and Russia.

Once Russia invaded, they needed to be beaten out. It's fantasy to think that a utopia of Europe is possible with Putin in charge.

This wouldn't be the first oil war, nor the last.