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War in Ukraine

eaglesdare said:
So Trump is starting Negotiations with Putin to end the war without the EU.

All of a sudden the EU who have been pro war and no interest in peace talks feel left out and now want to be apart of it.

As predicted at the start a ridiculous war that could have been avoided but now we have countless lives lost.

Like I have said in other threads thank God the adults and common sense are back at the table now.
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What has always bothered me is the lying.....and there has been so much of it.

You don't get any of Europe's awful leaders....and they are truly awful...being straight with their people and admitting the truth over Ukraine, where poor decision making has meant they now find themselves in a situation where every outcome is bad for them....Well us, because I have to live with the consequences like every nod-along who agreed with them....it's more than annoying having pointed out how unwise it was.

Where we are now was predicted on this forum years ago, including us being left with nothing but cost and Ukraine a ruined basket case....no one needed to be a genius to see it. The most likely result was always this one. Trump being elected does bring the end of the war a little closer but probably by no less than six months to a year.

Anyway Europe's leaders are now faced with those bad choices to pick between....essentially the consequences of their choices. They either have to double their defence budgets and scale up their war industries, eventually risking their own troops peace-keeping in Ukraine (all of those options are highly unlikely and just result in those parties being voted out). Otherwise they will have to accept Russia's terms and step away from Ukraine....which considering the 'sunken cost'...collectively around 100 billion from Europe according to Trump is another very bad outcome.

As Europe's leaders seem incapable of playing chess and making rational decisions I make few predictions on what plan they will come up with....well one prediction, I don't think you'll be hearing 'for as long as it takes' that's for sure.

Oh and one other observation, all the politicians who made these decisions that essentially make our countries economically poorer, none of them will face any negative consequences for it. They all fail upwards as far as I can tell.....and it's a major reason why things are how they are.
 
Stirlingsays said:
What has always bothered me is the lying.....and there has been so much of it.

You don't get any of Europe's awful leaders....and they are truly awful...being straight with their people and admitting the truth over Ukraine, where poor decision making has meant they now find themselves in a situation where every outcome is bad for them....Well us, because I have to live with the consequences like every nod-along who agreed with them....it's more than annoying having pointed out how unwise it was.

Where we are now was predicted on this forum years ago, including us being left with nothing but cost and Ukraine a ruined basket case....no one needed to be a genius to see it. The most likely result was always this one. Trump being elected does bring the end of the war a little closer but probably by no less than six months to a year.

Anyway Europe's leaders are now faced with those bad choices to pick between....essentially the consequences of their choices. They either have to double their defence budgets and scale up their war industries, eventually risking their own troops peace-keeping in Ukraine (all of those options are highly unlikely and just result in those parties being voted out). Otherwise they will have to accept Russia's terms and step away from Ukraine....which considering the 'sunken cost'...collectively around 100 billion from Europe according to Trump is another very bad outcome.

As Europe's leaders seem incapable of playing chess and making rational decisions I make few predictions on what plan they will come up with....well one prediction, I don't think you'll be hearing 'for as long as it takes' that's for sure.

Oh and one other observation, all the politicians who made these decisions that essentially make our countries economically poorer, none of them will face any negative consequences for it. They all fail upwards as far as I can tell.....and it's a major reason why things are how they are.
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The consequences of Trump’s intervention is much more serious than this. Him trying to deal directly with Putin is tantamount to him tearing up the NATO pact.

He is proposing to give Putin everything he wants in return for nothing, without even consulting Ukraine or his allies. Putin would end up being rewarded for aggression. The Eastern European nations must be jumping with joy.

This is about as sensible as his proposals for Gaza and demonstrates his complete lack of understanding of, and skills in, foreign affairs and diplomacy. All that matters is how it plays at home.

Putin must be laughing his socks off to now be dealing with this complete idiot. All his Christmases arrived at once.
 
The events of the last couple of days show how Europe is effectively occupied US territory. Washington dealing directly with Russia over the fate of Ukraine. With ZERO recourse to any European nation.

This humiliation is beyond comprehension.

I am broadly Pro Trump, with reservations, and have long held the position that Russia was effectively provoked into acting as they did.

But I am European, first and foremost. I adore our civilisation.

And now reduced to this. Literally a vassal state.
 
Matov said:
The events of the last couple of days show how Europe is effectively occupied US territory. Washington dealing directly with Russia over the fate of Ukraine. With ZERO recourse to any European nation.

This humiliation is beyond comprehension.

I am broadly Pro Trump, with reservations, and have long held the position that Russia was effectively provoked into acting as they did.

But I am European, first and foremost. I adore our civilisation.

And now reduced to this. Literally a vassal state.
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When this war first started I said Europe would not win and we should keep out of it. Trump is being annoyingly realistic.

Europe is outraged that the US is doing a deal yet is not prepared to fund the war or provide troops. in short Trump is correct that Europe expects the US to fund the war but Europe expects to have a say.

Who pays the piper calls the tune.
 
Badger11 said:
When this war first started I said Europe would not win and we should keep out of it. Trump is being annoyingly realistic.

Europe is outraged that the US is doing a deal yet is not prepared to fund the war or provide troops. in short Trump is correct that Europe expects the US to fund the war but Europe expects to have a say.

Who pays the piper calls the tune.
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Isn’t the simple reality that Trump doesn’t want to poke the bear and so throwing Ukraine under the bus, ceding territory and agreeing not to admit Ukraine to NATO is a simple and cheap solution to him? You can call it appeasement but to him it’s a means to an end. Ukraine is a long way from Washington.
 
Badger11 said:
When this war first started I said Europe would not win and we should keep out of it. Trump is being annoyingly realistic.

Europe is outraged that the US is doing a deal yet is not prepared to fund the war or provide troops. in short Trump is correct that Europe expects the US to fund the war but Europe expects to have a say.

Who pays the piper calls the tune.
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Nobody was going to win when Putin started this war. It was always about minimising the losses in the long term. Allowing Putin to achieve all he ever wanted, with nothing in return, and able to recover economically and then again ignore any guarantees given, is the work of an idiot. Not a deal making maestro! Doing so without even consulting the country involved or your partners is the work of a megalomaniac.

It’s not Europe that’s outraged about Trump’s lack of diplomacy. It’s everyone who understands the importance of the NATO alliance in maintaining peace in Europe and beyond. That includes many in North America who recognise its value to them. The days are gone when countries like the USA were beyond attack.

If NATO is broken by Trump then everything changes. Breaking a partnership as long lasting and as vital as this, without notice or consultation, is both stupid and unconscionable. Whether NATO can find a way to hold itself together for 4 years remains to be seen. There will be strong pushback within the US military for sure.

This man is out of control and quite possibly out of his mind. How much will it take for Congress to act?
 
kevlee said:
Isn’t the simple reality that Trump doesn’t want to poke the bear and so throwing Ukraine under the bus, ceding territory and agreeing not to admit Ukraine to NATO is a simple and cheap solution to him? You can call it appeasement but to him it’s a means to an end. Ukraine is a long way from Washington.
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A valid point, but that's why the EU / UK stance is so rubbish. Somehow they expect the US to care whilst not doing anything about it themselves.
 
Britain the empire finished in the 50's and the PM told you so.

But the rulers never quite got it, that they were not wanted anymore, that they were not exceptional as post-brexit Britain shows.

Starmer admires Wilson but he's got it all wrong.

Wilson would not be involved in the Middle East or Russia, or maintaining aircraft carriers in the far east for PR purposes, he kept us out of Vietrnam, but maintained a close friendship with the USA.

Skills you just don't appear to have, Sir Keir.

And in the period 1965-70 the Labour government actually built nearly 2 miilon houses including council properties, there were rent controls and the wealthy contributed more in taxes.

And surprisingly lost to Heath, but that's the voters for you.


😎
 
steeleye20 said:
Britain the empire finished in the 50's and the PM told you so.

But the rulers never quite got it, that they were not wanted anymore, that they were not exceptional as post-brexit Britain shows.

Starmer admires Wilson but he's got it all wrong.

Wilson would not be involved in the Middle East or Russia, or maintaining aircraft carriers in the far east for PR purposes, he kept us out of Vietrnam, but maintained a close friendship with the USA.

Skills you just don't appear to have, Sir Keir.

And in the period 1965-70 the Labour government actually built nearly 2 miilon houses including council properties, there were rent controls and the wealthy contributed more in taxes.

And surprisingly lost to Heath, but that's the voters for you.


😎
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Heath in many ways was to the left of Wilson.
 
PalazioVecchio said:
many bellicose feckers now have egg on their face.
The EU, Nato, Biden, most Lefties.

Trump & Putin have come out on top.
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That association ought to concern everyone.

Especially the furthest right of the right wing posters on here.

Putin is dangling Trump on a string. He is milking his narcissism and desire to be seen as statesman. The shame is that so many here seem so completely taken in by it.
 
PalazioVecchio said:
many bellicose feckers now have egg on their face.
The EU, Nato, Biden, most Lefties.

Trump & Putin have come out on top.
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Of course Putin will make out he’s won. He’ll be having victory parades in Red Square and his gullible population might even believe him. It’s a complete illusion. The Russian economy is wrecked. Russia has lost many thousands of their best talented people. Their army is devastated. Their navy is a joke. They have gained a relatively small area of Ukrainian land. They have failed to defeat Ukraine.
The fact that some on here seem to support Putin and condemn Ukraine and NATO is astonishing.
 
Eaglehamster said:
Of course Putin will make out he’s won. He’ll be having victory parades in Red Square and his gullible population might even believe him. It’s a complete illusion. The Russian economy is wrecked. Russia has lost many thousands of their best talented people. Their army is devastated. Their navy is a joke. They have gained a relatively small area of Ukrainian land. They have failed to defeat Ukraine.
The fact that some on here seem to support Putin and condemn Ukraine and NATO is astonishing.
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Still deluded I see.
 
steeleye20 said:
Britain the empire finished in the 50's and the PM told you so.

But the rulers never quite got it, that they were not wanted anymore, that they were not exceptional as post-brexit Britain shows.

Starmer admires Wilson but he's got it all wrong.

Wilson would not be involved in the Middle East or Russia, or maintaining aircraft carriers in the far east for PR purposes, he kept us out of Vietrnam, but maintained a close friendship with the USA.

Skills you just don't appear to have, Sir Keir.

And in the period 1965-70 the Labour government actually built nearly 2 miilon houses including council properties, there were rent controls and the wealthy contributed more in taxes.

And surprisingly lost to Heath, but that's the voters for you.


😎
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We lost our empire because of WW2.....ironic really as saving the empire was high on Churchill's wish list for joining the war in the first place.

The conservatives lied to the voters after the war, in every manifesto they said they wouldn't increase immigration and not give away colonies and yet history clearly shows the opposite.....it's essentially the history of the Conservative party post WW2.

I agree with you that Wilson was good on foreign policy and skilled at international relations......But the Labour party of the 60s is a very different animal to the Labour party of today.

I also agree that Heath was a frigging disaster, though possibly for different reasons than we would agree on Steely.
 
2TK can fly around as much as he wants pretending to be an influential leader, the UK has not been a world power of any description for decades, which is fine with me.

Being a legacy nuclear power means very little in today's world.

We need to concentrate on improving the lot of our own citizens, not p£ssing billions away on virtue signalling causes.
 
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