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War in Ukraine

georgenorman said:
It's not clear whether the USA would have joined us in fighting Germany had Hitler not declared war on them or even fighting Japan if it had not been for Pearl Harbour.
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WW2 defines so much of our history and even now is an incredibly rich mine of information about how the world works.

The counterfactuals on what happened and what could have happened depending on which decisions were made and when are fascinating.
 
Stirlingsays said:
US public opinion was against joining the war, but the president lied about his intention to get elected and then did the old switcheroo.

How much did the US intelligence services know about Pearl Harbour beforehand? There is suspicion....though perhaps not quite as strong as Israel knowing about October 7th being planned.

We disagree on the wisdom of getting involved in that war, and my evidence of course is everything that's happened as a consequence of it.
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Agreed. I'm glad the Americans did join but it's odd how FDR to this day is a hero and yet he shameless lied to the voters. I read a book which covered the correspondence between Church and FDR before and during the war. Churchill of course was desperate to drag America into it and didn't hide that from FDR. FDR for his part was sympathetic to Britain (thank god) and made it clear (secretly to Churchill) that he was working towards that end despite telling Americans they would keep out of it.

He's a Tony Blair in reverse. Lies to the public to get elected then goes to war but ends up being incredibly popular because of it.

Britain was lucky, when Japan bombed Pearl harbour the politicians wanted the war to focus on the Japanese, Churchill was very concerned that the US would keep out of Europe until Hitler did us a solid and declared war on the US.

Even then Congress wanted to focus on the Japanese rather than Hitler who was only a nominal threat to the US. FDR to his credit kept his word to Churchill and made resources available for the European campaign.

FDR was a great friend to Britain not so much to the American voters who were isolationists.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Even though it was close Hitler miscalculated when he invaded Russia in 41......He knew himself that if the Axis were to win WW2 that he had to control Russia by the end of 42. For reasons that fill entire books that didn't happen.

As for 'winning' the war that for us, in a practical sense meant surviving it. We did that, though the consequences of the war essentially destroyed us.....Everything you see now, here and in Europe, has been as a consequence of those two world wars.
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Precisely.

In order to defeat communism, Hitler should have formed an alliance with Britain and the US.

Unfortunately, bad outcomes can result from good outcomes. Who knows where the world would have gone had Russia been defeated by and allied effort?

As it is, we are ruled by liberals who wish to destroy our culture. On the positive, we have avoided another world war for 80 years.
 
Hrolf The Ganger said:
Precisely.

In order to defeat communism, he should have formed an alliance with Britain and the US.

Unfortunately, bad outcomes can result from good outcomes. Who knows where the world would have gone had Russian been defeated by and allied effort?

As it is, we are ruled by liberals who wish to destroy our culture. On the positive, we have avoided another world war for 80 years.
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I think he tried to beforehand, at least with us, I don't know about the US.

You are of course right, we just don't know.....my opinion has the benefit of hindsight.

However, that hindsight also allows me to make the judgement based on where we were before and what happened afterwards. The work on destroying nationhood has been very deliberate and stunningly successful.

The British position was always to work against a dominant power on the European mainland. It worked against Napoleon, however personally I think Russia and communism was a whole other level of threat.....I'd have left fascism and communism to fight it out personally....I certainly wouldn't have helped Uncle Joe. But obviously other opinions are available.

Personally I don't think Churchill would be happy with where we are.
 
Stirlingsays said:
I think he tried to beforehand, at least with us, I don't know about the US.

You are of course right, we just don't know.....my opinion has the benefit of hindsight.

However, that hindsight also allows me to make the judgement based on where we were before and what happened afterwards.

The British position was always to work against a dominant power on the European mainland. It worked against Napoleon, however personally I think Russia and communism was a whole other level of threat.....I'd have left fascism and communism to fight it out personally. But obviously other opinions are available.

Personally I don't think Churchill would be happy with where we are.
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Churchill was a warmonger. He took us into WW2 as a completely inadequate military force. We only survived primarily because of America and very poor strategy by Hitler.

Would Germany have gone to war with Britain anyway? That is a question for historians.
Could we have worked with someone as radical as Hitler? Not for long I suspect.
Would the world be better without Communist Russia? Division is part of human nature. We would find a new enemy.
Would the world be better if it was ruled by fascist governments? Not if they were like the Nazi model.

Should Hitler be an excuse for all the damage that has been done to Europe. Hell no. We always learn the wrong lessons.
 
Things that now can be said about Pearl Harbour.
The US had just moved it's fleet from California and knew that moving it to Hawaii was threatening Japan. Britain had broken the Japanese Naval codes and knew the attack was coming and informed the US. The Japanese closed down their US embassy that day. The Americans sank a Japanese mini sub at the mouth of Pearl Harbour that very morning. Radar showed the planes coming - including the base's radar. Yet, it was a surprise.
 
ASCPFC said:
Things that now can be said about Pearl Harbour.
The US had just moved it's fleet from California and knew that moving it to Hawaii was threatening Japan. Britain had broken the Japanese Naval codes and knew the attack was coming and informed the US. The Japanese closed down their US embassy that day. The Americans sank a Japanese mini sub at the mouth of Pearl Harbour that very morning. Radar showed the planes coming - including the base's radar. Yet, it was a surprise.
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Yep, this underhand dishonest work by elites is behind most of why the common man and woman have suffered millions of dead in multiple wars for power plays.

It has been confirmed that the RMS Lusitania was carrying ammunition when it was sunk by a German U-boat in 1915. Investigations and dives to the wreck have revealed the presence of significant amounts of live ammunition. This discovery supports the argument that the Lusitania was functioning as more than just a passenger liner.

I'm not proud of the fact that we lied about it at the time and continued to lie about it for decades. Even as a schoolboy I remember reading about how the claim wasn't true. Over a thousand people died in that sinking....which the Germans had warned that they would do. It was a significant factor in the US entering that war as well.

The general public in general are far too trusting.
 
Badger11 said:
Agreed. I'm glad the Americans did join but it's odd how FDR to this day is a hero and yet he shameless lied to the voters. I read a book which covered the correspondence between Church and FDR before and during the war. Churchill of course was desperate to drag America into it and didn't hide that from FDR. FDR for his part was sympathetic to Britain (thank god) and made it clear (secretly to Churchill) that he was working towards that end despite telling Americans they would keep out of it.

He's a Tony Blair in reverse. Lies to the public to get elected then goes to war but ends up being incredibly popular because of it.

Britain was lucky, when Japan bombed Pearl harbour the politicians wanted the war to focus on the Japanese, Churchill was very concerned that the US would keep out of Europe until Hitler did us a solid and declared war on the US.

Even then Congress wanted to focus on the Japanese rather than Hitler who was only a nominal threat to the US. FDR to his credit kept his word to Churchill and made resources available for the European campaign.

FDR was a great friend to Britain not so much to the American voters who were isolationists.
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To the victor the spoils.What a load of codswallop. We should have presented an itemised bill to the aggressors.
 
beak said:
To the victor the spoils.What a load of codswallop. We should have presented an itemised bill to the aggressors.
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They did that in WW1, how did that work out?

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Geddes said they should

See our example GCSE Essay on Geddes said they should Squeeze the German lemon until the pips squeak - How far was this the aim of the Treaty of Versailles and did it succeed in fulfilling Geddes hopes? now.
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