Sage is sage

TheBigToePunt said:
I think it depends on what Sage is saying to Parish in private.

At one extreme, if Sage is saying 'Steve, I play pressing football because God told me to and I'd rather drink paint than change. That's what we are doing. If these idiots can't get it right then that's their fault' then I imagine Parish will be nudging Hobbs and whispering 'See if Dychey still wants the job...'. If the word 'Philosophy' has left Sage's mouth then all bets are off.

At the other extreme, if Sage says 'Steve, I'm trying to get on the front foot and have a go, but if it keeps coming unstuck like this then, after a few more goes at it, I'll have to change to a far more risk-averse method, if only for now' then I'd guess Sage is as safe as safe can be, as that change in approach is all Parish would achieve by replacing him with Dyche anyway.

More realistically, if Sage is saying 'Listen Steve, you hired me knowing I play pressing football. That's how I did so well in France. I believe it can be effective but it takes time to implement, and I haven't had that time given how late the squad was actually together and at my disposal. Give it time, it'll work' then Parish will have serious food for thought.

Basically, I think a lot will turn on whether Parish is convinced by how Sage explains his thinking.
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You'd assume that would be a big part of the job interview process. Outlining his philosophy but setting expectations on how quickly and perfectly it can be implemented.
 
I'm all for keeping Sage. It's too early to judge him. 4 games and a preseason(with the 2nd team who are now all out on loan or sold), unhappy Starr players and 11 newbies to integrate.. hows he supposed to prepare and hit the ground running with that?
Plus, I've always been an advocate of a Manager transfer window, where you cannot get in a new man outside the window; I think that clubs should have the courage of their convictions and see it through. It also gives the manager a little job security which would help the process.

I can too see the similarities with FdB, but i think the difference is he had a comparatively decent pre season - then didn't he change everything going into the main season, and 'Evolution' became 'Revolution' then Parish revolted!
However, I saw improvement with de Boer's first 4 games, like I'm seeing with Sage and I was in the keep him camp then too. I think it was clear that FdB fell out with SP. Lets hope that Sage isn't going down the same road.
 
CrazyBadger said:
I'm all for keeping Sage. It's too early to judge him. 4 games and a preseason(with the 2nd team who are now all out on loan or sold), unhappy Starr players and 11 newbies to integrate.. hows he supposed to prepare and hit the ground running with that?
Plus, I've always been an advocate of a Manager transfer window, where you cannot get in a new man outside the window; I think that clubs should have the courage of their convictions and see it through. It also gives the manager a little job security which would help the process.

I can too see the similarities with FdB, but i think the difference is he had a comparatively decent pre season - then didn't he change everything going into the main season, and 'Evolution' became 'Revolution' then Parish revolted!
However, I saw improvement with de Boer's first 4 games, like I'm seeing with Sage and I was in the keep him camp then too. I think it was clear that FdB fell out with SP. Lets hope that Sage isn't going down the same road.
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Did you? The 2 home games (Huddersfield and Swansea) were woeful, although the 2 away defeats at Liverpool and especially Burnley were better performances.

The issue with FdB is that he tried to change things too quickly (see Amorin at Man U) when he didn't have the players for the system he wanted e.g. Ward at RWB.

Sage is doing the opposite. He's not changed too much as he admits he's not had time due to the WC impacting pre-season.

I don't think FdB and SP fell out as such, SP has previously mentioned when they sat down and had a chat about progress, FdB wouldn't accept any blame for the situation, which then put SP in a difficult situation.

Glasner could only get a tune out of the players when he had the 1st XI available. Sage has been hamstrung to date due to player turnover (5 arrived in the last few days of the window) and the fact that 2 of the 1st XI have made themselves unavailable (ok they may be injured, but you know what i mean).
 
palace99 said:
Did you? The 2 home games (Huddersfield and Swansea) were woeful, although the 2 away defeats at Liverpool and especially Burnley were better performances.

The issue with FdB is that he tried to change things too quickly (see Amorin at Man U) when he didn't have the players for the system he wanted e.g. Ward at RWB.

Sage is doing the opposite. He's not changed too much as he admits he's not had time due to the WC impacting pre-season.

I don't think FdB and SP fell out as such, SP has previously mentioned when they sat down and had a chat about progress, FdB wouldn't accept any blame for the situation, which then put SP in a difficult situation.

Glasner could only get a tune out of the players when he had the 1st XI available. Sage has been hamstrung to date due to player turnover (5 arrived in the last few days of the window) and the fact that 2 of the 1st XI have made themselves unavailable (ok they may be injured, but you know what i mean).
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That's the way I remember it - though my memory has been known to be fairly suspect!
I see to remember Fdb's 4th game was the best performance, and may have warranted at least a stay of execution. That whole summer was talk of 'Evolution, not Revolution', then all of a sudden Revolution it was, and it didn't start(or end, for Fdb) well.

Sage may have not changed much, but hasn't he mentioned that he's surprised to how hard it is to get the players to stop playing Glasners system (or something to that Effect)?
He has had a lot of issues to deal with which I think will give him some lenience, but it won't last forever. He'll either come good or they'll be a 'mutual agreement' to move on. Personally I reckon he'll come through, and by december we'll see some decent results.
 
palace99 said:
Did you? The 2 home games (Huddersfield and Swansea) were woeful, although the 2 away defeats at Liverpool and especially Burnley were better performances.

The issue with FdB is that he tried to change things too quickly (see Amorin at Man U) when he didn't have the players for the system he wanted e.g. Ward at RWB.

Sage is doing the opposite. He's not changed too much as he admits he's not had time due to the WC impacting pre-season.

I don't think FdB and SP fell out as such, SP has previously mentioned when they sat down and had a chat about progress, FdB wouldn't accept any blame for the situation, which then put SP in a difficult situation.

Glasner could only get a tune out of the players when he had the 1st XI available. Sage has been hamstrung to date due to player turnover (5 arrived in the last few days of the window) and the fact that 2 of the 1st XI have made themselves unavailable (ok they may be injured, but you know what i mean).
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We only ever had a first XV under Glasner. That was the major issue that we failed to resolve. As a result, we lost our best ever manager.
 
Phil’s Barber said:
On Sage, I’ll nail my colours to the flag now and say I’d like to keep him.

He did well with both Lyon & RC Lens and I like a lot of what I see him trying to do with us.

I’d genuinely give him time to sort things out.

Now I may get lambasted for this and believe me I don’t want it to happen but I don’t view relegation as the end of the world. I hate VAR with a passion and The Championship is living proof that football can be both exciting and enjoyable.
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West ham fans would probably agree with you at the as well
 
Phil’s Barber said:
On Sage, I’ll nail my colours to the flag now and say I’d like to keep him.

He did well with both Lyon & RC Lens and I like a lot of what I see him trying to do with us.

I’d genuinely give him time to sort things out.

Now I may get lambasted for this and believe me I don’t want it to happen but I don’t view relegation as the end of the world. I hate VAR with a passion and The Championship is living proof that football can be both exciting and enjoyable.
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I’ve been saying it for a few years, the championship would freshen it up again for me, no VAR, all the foreign tourists would move on to another premier league club, possibly a chance of winning more home games and competing up the top of the division instead of the bottom half, possibly another playoff final………the only down for me would be the despair of having to sit through the season we actually get relegated
 
In a strange turn of events... If Sage was to leave us, his old job at Lens looks like it's available as Topmöller is a on his way.

Topmöller was apparently also a target of ours... It would be a strange situation to see the two trade places but stranger things have happened. He plays a back 4 so that'd please some people in sure.
 
samprior said:
In a strange turn of events... If Sage was to leave us, his old job at Lens looks like it's available as Topmöller is a on his way.

Topmöller was apparently also a target of ours... It would be a strange situation to see the two trade places but stranger things have happened. He plays a back 4 so that'd please some people in sure.
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You're suggesting a Johnson/O'Neill part 2?
 
TheBigToePunt said:
I think it depends on what Sage is saying to Parish in private.

At one extreme, if Sage is saying 'Steve, I play pressing football because God told me to and I'd rather drink paint than change. That's what we are doing. If these idiots can't get it right then that's their fault' then I imagine Parish will be nudging Hobbs and whispering 'See if Dychey still wants the job...'. If the word 'Philosophy' has left Sage's mouth then all bets are off.

At the other extreme, if Sage says 'Steve, I'm trying to get on the front foot and have a go, but if it keeps coming unstuck like this then, after a few more goes at it, I'll have to change to a far more risk-averse method, if only for now' then I'd guess Sage is as safe as safe can be, as that change in approach is all Parish would achieve by replacing him with Dyche anyway.

More realistically, if Sage is saying 'Listen Steve, you hired me knowing I play pressing football. That's how I did so well in France. I believe it can be effective but it takes time to implement, and I haven't had that time given how late the squad was actually together and at my disposal. Give it time, it'll work' then Parish will have serious food for thought.

Basically, I think a lot will turn on whether Parish is convinced by how Sage explains his thinking.
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To be honest without palace eyes we need to trust sage not gut reaction , dont blame sage for inept poor play by players , its not real world were you get fired for not doing your job , its football world which players can blame someone else
 
I think it would be ludicrous to sack Sage even after the next 3 games. We at least have to see what he can do with a run of games with his best team. He hasn't had one game with his best players available yet. Before the sending off on Saturday and in spells against Fulham most of us could see what he is trying to do. Like it or not I think we just have to give it time and be a bit patient.
Switching to a 4 4 2 or even a 3 5 3 is probably only going to confuse the players even more and thats if it were even feasible to implement now the season has started.
 
est1905 said:
I think it would be ludicrous to sack Sage even after the next 3 games. We at least have to see what he can do with a run of games with his best team. He hasn't had one game with his best players available yet. Before the sending off on Saturday and in spells against Fulham most of us could see what he is trying to do. Like it or not I think we just have to give it time and be a bit patient.
Switching to a 4 4 2 or even a 3 5 3 is probably only going to confuse the players even more and thats if it were even feasible to implement now the season has started.
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Prior to the start of the season my messaging to some supporters and non-devotees was that with the churn of players and the situation relating to Mateta and Sarr, it could take time to "Hit our straps" with bumps and bruises along the way accordingly I am not surprised by our current standing.

Apropos the future of Sage, whether he is given what people believe is an acceptable run of time will very much depend on results, performances and league placement. Some significant defeats and disorganised performances culminating in us plummeting into the relegation zone might well force Steve Parish to act perhaps sooner than people envisage.
I do hope this situation does not unfold, as it is not in our interests to witness such a decline.
 
MrRobbo said:
Defensively, were we, or were we not most open against Fulham? I'll answer, Yes!

Defensively, were we, or were we not significantly more organised vs Ipswich? Yes.

Direction of travel - we are starting to figure out the balance.

Offensively, are we better or worse than we were last season? Clearly!

Offensively are we managing to still create, and score, without our 2 best offensive players? Yes!

Look I do understand some concern, but IMO we've immediately fixed the major issue from last season (unable to fashion many chances), and are starting to to move in the right direction defensively. Albeit slowly. Clearly having mostly a new defence, and JP and Sarr on strike haven't helped things.

Be positive.

We're 16th in the league, ahead of suprs, fulham, and villa, who have also had lots of turnover. A period of turmoil was and is to be expected.

Anyone whose done their research on Sage knew what we were going to get. And that includes Parish. Its almost the polar opposite way to how the team was set up previously. And a hell of a load more exciting. Remember Larnaca or KuPS last season? If this style is the antithesis of that, I'll all for it!
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I take your point that we conceded fewer absolutely clear cut chances against Ipswich but we conceded three goals at home to a team who have less good attacking players than Fulham. I just don’t see that as tightening up defensively. I see that is still being in the same zone of having an awful defence as a team.

Yes we in theory look better attacking but that is because we are just chucking the wing backs and centre midfielders forward which then means we are easy pickings. So we think it is progress but it isn’t really, it’s just bad tactics losing us games.

The fact Sage is so opposite and inexperienced as you say is a reason many of us were nervous about his appointment given the challenges of doing a rebuild. That’s not Sage’s fault but can still mean he isn’t the right man for the job.

Ultimately we now need to see what happens next. Hopefully we tighten up, start competing and get some more points. I just can’t share the optimism this is what will happen and suspect we will be looking for a new manager post the Brighton game.
 
park the bus said:
Of course. The formation and approach come down to Sage's tactical choices, and it's easy to blame him. But you know, I think the malaise set in at least as far back as when Glasner told Parish he wasn't going to renew his contract. Parish took the decision to hold Glasner to the end of the season, during which time one would have thought he had plenty of time for a plan of succession for this season. In the meantime the club spent near £90m on 2 players who were never worth anything near, one was so bad he had to be shipped out in record time! This large spend depleted the coffers and we have seen this in the plethora of cheapo, freebie and loan signings to pad out the squad for the challenging season ahead. These players were presented to Sage to sort out, evaluate and knock into team shape. All rather a lot to do in such a short space of time and it's no wonder it's such a mess - it would likely have been the same for most other managers.
Parish and those around him have to be scrutinized for their part in the collective failure, if only because he employed Sage, a manager who favours the high press which is untenable in the short term with this set of players. Also selling a key central defender on the eve of the new season with a couple of freebies / loans as replacement isn't smart from a pure footballing standpoint.
Glasner's role is also noted.
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I thought the high press meant you score goals. We have 9 in 5 games. Something must be working.
 
Many years ago the the then PM, Harold MacMillan, was asked to consider what was the biggest threat to his premiership.
He responded, ' Events, dear boy, Events.'

In the case of Sage you may as well substitute the word 'Results ' for 'Events , as that will be a major contributor to the length of his stay.
It can be said he's unlucky, things have conspired against him etc, but that won't matter much if the results are bad.

I certainly find his approach to players different.
He's reversed the football psychology employed by renowned motivators Clough and Mourinho.
When players played well they would criticise them ( to keep their feet on the ground) and if they played badly they would praise them ( to boost their confidence).

I like Sage's approach of calling players out but he may be on a forlorn mission.
 
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