Kamada

MrRobbo said:
But this feels like its perfectly sums up the Kamada detractors stance.

If you defend him from a subjective perspective, winning run, trophies, team cohesion etc its batter away as coincidence or as though he player no role.

If you argue from an objective perspective, he makes more tackles, he carries the ball more, he plays more progressive passes. People reply like the above.

He can and does tackle, Hughes granted looks like he's doing more. But its just that, he looks like it. Races around getting pulled out of position left right and centre.
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Well, all I can say is that I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm happy for any player to do well and on Thursday I had no problem praising Kamada, so it's not like I have a predetermined position. I'm just saying what I (and from the looks of it, something at least close to a majority on here) see and think. He's a very average player.

His form in recent weeks has been as good as I've seen it, so let's hope that continues.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
But it was never about a ‘whole story’ - the suggestion was that Kamada can’t/won’t tackle and that was disproved quite simply by a tackle count.

Of course stats don’t tell the whole story - I’m not aware of anyone who has claimed they do. But in a discussion about whether a player makes a lot of tackles, I think a count of how many tackles they make is a pretty conclusive bit of data.
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The 'whole story' in this case is limited to whether Kamada contributes to the team in terms of tackling. That's what we were discussing yesterday, and that is what I think the simple opta statistics don't reliably portray.

In an earlier post this morning you set out some of the nuances and depths that modern stats seek to wrestle with. I think that's right, because headline stats by themselves can tell you so little, can miss so many other important things, or can even mislead. That's the point I've been making, that to rely on Kamada's headline stats in terms of tackles won is to overlook all those nuances, other factors etc. I've tried to point out what some of them might be, based on what I see in the games.

It's not controversial to say that if a player horribly miss-hits a shot, dragging it across goal so badly that a teammate is able to score from it, the 'assist' they record is pretty meaningless. Yet it's in the record, same as the assists awarded for a brilliant cross or through ball. I'm simply saying that the same is true of counting tackles.

Anyway, we've probably done this to death now! Kamada was really good last week, hopefully he'll repeat that tonight. Cheers.
 
A trio of snippets from Kamada yesterday in the press conference:
1. He had found the first six months very tough as he aclimatised to the Premier league, so he understood what Yeremy Pino was going through.
2. His agent told him he was leaving Lazio and the best option was Crystal Palace.
3. He is waiting to be told where his future lies.
 
Inquisitive Aquila said:
A trio of snippets from Kamada yesterday in the press conference:
1. He had found the first six months very tough as he aclimatised to the Premier league, so he understood what Yeremy Pino was going through.
2. His agent told him he was leaving Lazio and the best option was Crystal Palace.
3. He is waiting to be told where his future lies.
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Did he suggest whether palace had or hadn't offered him a new deal?
 
Inquisitive Aquila said:
A trio of snippets from Kamada yesterday in the press conference:
1. He had found the first six months very tough as he aclimatised to the Premier league, so he understood what Yeremy Pino was going through.
2. His agent told him he was leaving Lazio and the best option was Crystal Palace.
3. He is waiting to be told where his future lies.
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So, a player who does what his agent says - an agent who , like Kamada himself, picks up lots of lovely dosh with every free transfer. Not a bad system for the two of them, As it turned out Kamada also picked up an FA Cup medal and one for the Community Shield and a third medal might possilbly be on its way.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
But it was never about a ‘whole story’ - the suggestion was that Kamada can’t/won’t tackle and that was disproved quite simply by a tackle count.

Of course stats don’t tell the whole story - I’m not aware of anyone who has claimed they do. But in a discussion about whether a player makes a lot of tackles, I think a count of how many tackles they make is a pretty conclusive bit of data.
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Sometimes a tackle is not made but the player restricts the holding player from doing anything with the ball and sends them to blind alley , think you have overstated about these stats are put together by a massive global effort the costs out way the rewards , in my opinion no one camera is on one player also , you need to know what the players instruction was , it would take for ever to analyse 1 match , but do get what your saying
 
mtp1958 said:
Sometimes a tackle is not made but the player restricts the holding player from doing anything with the ball and sends them to blind alley , think you have overstated about these stats are put together by a massive global effort the costs out way the rewards , in my opinion no one camera is on one player also , you need to know what the players instruction was , it would take for ever to analyse 1 match , but do get what your saying
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Yes, sometimes that does happen, but it's not remotely enough of a consideration to disregard the headline 'tackles won' number.

I think you're massively underestimating how big an industry analytics is in football - AI allows them to analyse enormous volumes of data very quickly. A single match generates 3000+ 'actions', millions of positional coordinates, hundreds of thousands of movement samples etc. etc.

Again, this isn't opinion - this stuff all already happens.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Yes, sometimes that does happen, but it's not remotely enough of a consideration to disregard the headline 'tackles won' number.

I think you're massively underestimating how big an industry analytics is in football - AI allows them to analyse enormous volumes of data very quickly. A single match generates 3000+ 'actions', millions of positional coordinates, hundreds of thousands of movement samples etc. etc.

Again, this isn't opinion - this stuff all already happens.
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And AI is always right mmmm I have my doubts
 
"He's not an outstanding individual talent, he's a very integral cog (you have to hear that in the necessary Monty Python way)".

I'm sure I've said that before.

If he leaves an FA Cup, Community Shield and ECL winner, I'm sure memories and opinions of Kamada will change.
 
mtp1958 said:
Ok only 3 people per match are used by opta stats 1 for 1 team 1 for the other and 1 checks thats from AI
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Analysing millions of data points per match, along with many other companies doing the same.

Bearing in mind your original argument was essentially that I am ‘overstating the scale of how this data is collected’,
I don’t get the resistance to just acknowledging that you had underestimated the scale of it.

Stats Perform, who own Opta, are valued at about $3-4bn, and they are just one of many businesses operating in this space - it’s an enormous industry.
 
I get the impression that most of the time the sides that pass accurately and move swiftly are the best - tackling comes into it but the modern game is far more about the passing and the movement, the ball being turned over due to pressing and inaccurate passing.
 
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