Kamada will be an asset

[pssguy]

A comparison between Wharton, Hughes, Lerma, Kamada & Devenny based on this season's league games only:




Is he that bad?

yep. Pass completition is such a blunt stat a bit like possession. Just because you can measure something does not mean it has any worth. Short passes backwards are easy; line splitting lengthy ones - not so much. But much more valuable

 

[silvertop]

Wrong. He has just signed a new/improved contract.

Excuse me I am NEVER wrong.

(Occasionally I may be factually misdirected.)

 

[silvertop]

John Pratt used to get absolute dog's abuse off the Tottenham crowd. He was there for 11 years and played over 400 games and it never stopped. It was almost a ritual that when his name was announced the whole ground would erupt with booing.
He never hid and always tried his best. Bet they wish they had a few with his attitude now.

11 years being booed by your own fans. That's Panto. Also, unless he got off on it, would you not opt for a free to Orient just for a break from the abuse.

 

[Jim_Cannon]

To help some of you get over the line with Kamada wages. He was a player out of contract in Italy. This meant he could negotiate his sale and future wages to another club. We offered him £100k/wk for two years, so his total cost to us is £10million.
That's it.
If you say he was worth £5m to buy which arguably would have been a bargain, then the resulting maths would give him £50k/week wages for two years.
Whichever way you slice it, he is not expensive, and you can't compare his £100k/wk salary with other players who we paid for, Kamada was free.

Yep spot on. We can judge his performances but his financial cost to the club was minimal in premier league terms

 

[Teddy Eagle]

11 years being booed by your own fans. That's Panto. Also, unless he got off on it, would you not opt for a free to Orient just for a break from the abuse.

Personally I would, yes.
Here's a quote from Wikipedia.

I had been getting it in the neck a bit from some of the sections of the crowd at Spurs but Bill expected his players to be men, and he said that the crowd paid our wages and were entitled to have their opinions. So one day, before I was due to play my first game at Old Trafford, I asked him what I could expect. He replied that it would just be like playing at Spurs, except that up there 55,000 people would hate me, whereas at Spurs it was only 45,000!

 

[DenTyler]

11 years being booed by your own fans. That's Panto. Also, unless he got off on it, would you not opt for a free to Orient just for a break from the abuse.

Oh no it isn’t

 

[Casual]

Yeah I get this. We should have paid him 5 mil signing on fee and 50 grand a week.
That way it wouldn’t be a big deal on here and probably pissed off half the first team.

To help some of you get over the

line with Kamada wages. He was a player out of contract in Italy. This meant he could negotiate his sale and future wages to another club. We offered him £100k/wk for two years, so his total cost to us is £10million.
That's it.
If you say he was worth £5m to buy which arguably would have been a bargain, then the resulting maths would give him £50k/week wages for two years.
Whichever way you slice it, he is not expensive, and you can't compare his £100k/wk salary with other players who we paid for, Kamada was free.

 

[sprites]

Is just not true though.

Every mistake he makes is scrutinised beyond belief. But people conveniently forget some of the neat passing to get out of defence that lead to one of the goals. Or the assist he should have had.

Not specific to our fans of course, but we have a pretty nasty habit of writing of players way too soon. How many people were slamming Lacroix after a few games? Nketiah has been vilified. TM seams to have escaped the bashing, but he was the target earlier in the season.

I've used the word binary before, but thats how a lot of fans see it. He's either good or sh1t. But thats not reality. IMO its clear that Nketiah is lively and a good finisher. I think its clear that Kamada is a technically tidy footballer. Does it always work out no, do they always make the right decisions, no. But that doesn't make them sh1t.

I also back Glasner, and think he knows what he's doing. He's not picking a terrible player over Hughes and Deveney, so what does he see that 'we' dont.

Lets say hypothetically, Hughes tears around trying to tackle anything he can see, but as a result gets pulled out of position a lot. With KDB and Gunduen, thats a death sentence. Kamada is a more inteligent presser (which looks slower to fans) but tactically is better for containment.

Ans lastly, I'm conscious that (as a casual fan with no higher training) there are facets of the game that I just cant see. e.g. I'm aware that Glasner will be seeing different things to what I see. Blocking passing channels, deciding when to press etc, and there will be some that are important in different games. e.g. JMP didn't have a good first half, but I didnt feel like it was bad enough to get hauled off. Glasner clearly wasn't happy.

I get all that. I really do. And I applaud you delving into the subject. I am not one of those who see things as binary. Pretty much every player has good facets and bad ones. Of course Glasner knows best. But usually with players I can see at least one redeeming feature...but it's just really hard with Daichi at the moment. I'd argue Hughes is even better in possession, which is saying something, as he's definitely more of a defensive asset.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

yep. Pass completition is such a blunt stat a bit like possession. Just because you can measure something does not mean it has any worth. Short passes backwards are easy; line splitting lengthy ones - not so much. But much more valuable

It is a blunt stat when used in isolation, sure, but I don't at all agree that it 'does not have any worth'.

You can certainly look to paint a more rounded picture by supporting it with some metrics around the type of passes being played, as I have done with the progressive passes per 90 number.

The data shows that Kamada is moving the ball forward more frequently than all of our midfielders (bar Wharton who is an absolute freak of nature) and with a higher success rate than all of them.

Again; I'm not suggesting we all now have to conclude that Kamada is amazing and should be starting every game - I just find it interesting to challenge my own perception of players with some objective metrics.

 

[park the bus]

In Glasner's preferred two man midfield set up, Kamada hasn't featured often as a starter. There's a reason for this: others are better than him in that particular specialist role. Kamada is described as an attacking midfielder / forward, these attributes do not fit the role he is asked to play in a two man midfield. Depending on the combination of the duo used, we can at times look very lightweight in this area of the pitch. Does this mean Kamada's role is to be a costly bench warming super-sub? Or does OG think Kamada has (from experience of working with him previously) the qualities required to be a regular starter. The jury is still out, and Kamada has yet to impress enough to stake a claim.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

It is a blunt stat when used in isolation, sure, but I don't at all agree that it 'does not have any worth'.

You can certainly look to paint a more rounded picture by supporting it with some metrics around the type of passes being played, as I have done with the progressive passes per 90 number.

The data shows that Kamada is moving the ball forward more frequently than all of our midfielders (bar Wharton who is an absolute freak of nature) and with a higher success rate than all of them.

Again; I'm not suggesting we all now have to conclude that Kamada is amazing and should be starting every game - I just find it interesting to challenge my own perception of players with some objective metrics.

Football metrics are quite interesting but often need too much contextualisation - you beat four players and set me up for a tap-in and you get an assist. I fumble the ball to you and you beat four player and score a cracker and I get an assist.
An out and out goalscorer is likely to have unimpressive metrics except the one that counts.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

In Glasner's preferred two man midfield set up, Kamada hasn't featured often as a starter. There's a reason for this: others are better than him in that particular specialist role. Kamada is described as an attacking midfielder / forward, these attributes do not fit the role he is asked to play in a two man midfield. Depending on the combination of the duo used, we can at times look very lightweight in this area of the pitch. Does this mean Kamada's role is to be a costly bench warming super-sub? Or does OG think Kamada has (from experience of working with him previously) the qualities required to be a regular starter. The jury is still out, and Kamada has yet to impress enough to stake a claim.

I actually think we signed him with the attacking midfielder positions in mind, but over the course of the season have decided he's a better fit in the deeper roles.

He lacks the athleticism to beat a man and so just doesn't work as a replacement for Eze or Sarr - there are very few attacking players in the Premier League who are not extremely athletic.

He's not a 'costly' player, but that's been done to death now - but yes, I don't think he will ever be much more than a depth option for us.

 

[PatrickA]

In Glasner's preferred two man midfield set up, Kamada hasn't featured often as a starter. There's a reason for this: others are better than him in that particular specialist role. Kamada is described as an attacking midfielder / forward, these attributes do not fit the role he is asked to play in a two man midfield. Depending on the combination of the duo used, we can at times look very lightweight in this area of the pitch. Does this mean Kamada's role is to be a costly bench warming super-sub? Or does OG think Kamada has (from experience of working with him previously) the qualities required to be a regular starter. The jury is still out, and Kamada has yet to impress enough to stake a claim.

When Olise left, Glasner said he was impossible to replace like for like through one purchase.

He said therefore the proposed solution was to have options - Sarr to stretch games or Kamada as a more 'technical' option - and this would depend on the nature of the opposition and how a game was going.

Eight months later what has happened is that Sarr has virtually made the position his own and improved over the course of the season in his tactical awareness and understanding with Munoz.

On the other hand, Kamada has never looked comfortable in the front 3 role.

He's been ok in the central midfield area when games are going well for us, but disappointing when games are going against us.
He's not the sort of player to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and he doesn't have Wharton's passing range, Hughes tenacity or Lerma's physicality.

When they are avaliable, I don't see Kamada in a starting role.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Football metrics are quite interesting but often need too much contextualisation - you beat four players and set me up for a tap-in and you get an assist. I fumble the ball to you and you beat four player and score a cracker and I get an assist.
An out and out goalscorer is likely to have unimpressive metrics except the one that counts.

Assists are a rubbish metric, I agree - but chance creation/xA numbers are not, and those can give you a much better indication as to how creative a player is.

 

[NEILLO]

Football metrics are quite interesting but often need too much contextualisation - you beat four players and set me up for a tap-in and you get an assist. I fumble the ball to you and you beat four player and score a cracker and I get an assist.
An out and out goalscorer is likely to have unimpressive metrics except the one that counts.

That springs to mind the Connor Wickham 3 yard pass to Jordan Ayew when he scored that outrageous goal against West Ham a few years ago - you know the one !

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Assists are a rubbish metric, I agree - but chance creation/xA numbers are not, and those can give you a much better indication as to how creative a player is.

Yes, that's fair. I guess it's a question of sorting out the meaningful stats from the mass of others. Presumably (hopefully?) those are the ones on which the scouts concentrate.

 

[MrRobbo]

It is a blunt stat when used in isolation, sure, but I don't at all agree that it 'does not have any worth'.

You can certainly look to paint a more rounded picture by supporting it with some metrics around the type of passes being played, as I have done with the progressive passes per 90 number.

The data shows that Kamada is moving the ball forward more frequently than all of our midfielders (bar Wharton who is an absolute freak of nature) and with a higher success rate than all of them.

Again; I'm not suggesting we all now have to conclude that Kamada is amazing and should be starting every game - I just find it interesting to challenge my own perception of players with some objective metrics.

All about the objective metrics.

I suspect nobody would have guessed that Kamada was (essentially) joint top with Hughes on tackles and interception. Especially as the general sentiment is that he's lightweight.

And you are spot on in the progressive carries point.

It the stuff that a lot of fans dont see, because its not the Hollywood balls. But those stats you demonstrate that he's doing better than a lot realise. And why for example he's picked ahead of Deveny, who statistically wins less tackles, gives the ball away more etc

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Yes, that's fair. I guess it's a question of sorting out the meaningful stats from the mass of others. Presumably (hopefully?) those are the ones on which the scouts concentrate.

There's a really interesting case in the Prem this year to highlight how useless assist tallies are; Salah has racked up a massive 18 assists in the league despite an xA(expected assists) tally of just 7.5.

Mbuemo on the other hand has an xA of 7.9, but only 5 assists.

So Mbuemo has created a higher quality/volume of chances than Salah has, but has less than a third of the number of assists - Liverpool obviously have better forwards who are more likely to convert harder chances, but there's also just a massive luck element within it.

Scouts would be far more concerned with the xA data than the assist count.

 

[NMPalace]

All about the objective metrics.

I suspect nobody would have guessed that Kamada was (essentially) joint top with Hughes on tackles and interception. Especially as the general sentiment is that he's lightweight.

And you are spot on in the progressive carries point.

It the stuff that a lot of fans dont see, because its not the Hollywood balls. But those stats you demonstrate that he's doing better than a lot realise. And why for example he's picked ahead of Deveny, who statistically wins less tackles, gives the ball away more etc

You've actually just demonstrated how statistics are often misunderstood by quoting Devenny stats, as he has barely played.

Football stats can be misleading (see the Vic Reeves quote, which is very good) as has been mentioned above (assists being the most overrated stat) but there is also the confidence level or margin of error.

As Devenny will have such limited data available the confidence level will be low. It's like doing a national survey and only asking 1,000 people, so far too small.

Most people can see how limited and ineffective Kamada is without needing any stats to back this up.

 

[Spindle]

A comparison between Wharton, Hughes, Lerma, Kamada & Devenny based on this season's league games only:




Is he that bad?

What's the stats for s*** tackle attempts that put your own side in deep s***?