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Israel v Hamas

Forest Hillbilly said:
I've had differing positions on these conflicts over the past year. New information coming to light, and new actions by involved states.
I was trying to work out what the end-game in all this was. Killing Islamist extremists ? oil ? Expanding Israel after killing/displacing a population.?

None of this makes real sense, because you'd only be bringing terrorism closer to UK shores.

So the conclusion I've come to , it is the current crop of Elites haven't got a clue what they're doing.
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The only thing I am certain of is that a load of Palestinian refugees (and some terrorists) will be heading our way some time soon.

A plague upon both your houses.
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
I've had differing positions on these conflicts over the past year. New information coming to light, and new actions by involved states.
I was trying to work out what the end-game in all this was. Killing Islamist extremists ? oil ? Expanding Israel after killing/displacing a population.?

None of this makes real sense, because you'd only be bringing terrorism closer to UK shores.

So the conclusion I've come to , it is the current crop of Elites haven't got a clue what they're doing.
Click to expand...

The prime motivation is nearly always money (allied to regime change policy in Russia). For example, despite the propaganda for the normies for the US the war in Ukraine is far more about protecting the interests of Halliburton, Blackrock, Exxon and Chevron than it is about the sold nonsense about democracy or Russia taking over Europe.....which it doesn't have the manpower for anyway.

For Israel itself.....Well, for the Jews there the motivation is honest....survival....Their survival as a Jewish state. The neocons in Israel have...probably rightly...taken the view that only a greater Israel ensures its long term survival with all its enemies defeated. To do that means killing a shitload of people...in truth more civilians than military.

I can't defend that morally but I see both sides of that argument and have expressed them however.....why the hell are we involved? (well in truth we all know why) But in a self interested sense why do we have to be fully enmeshed on one side when no one in the middle east actually gives a feck about the west other than taking its money and weapons and/or using it as a dumping ground.

None of these countries do anything for us other than cause us trouble, they buy our politicians and disfigure our politics, whichever side it is. Who sticks up for us?

On a political level I only have time for people who have an interest in preserving Europe as European. If they are Jewish or from the planet Neptune I'll stand with them. However, I'm not blind to the fact that foreign demographics and neo communists are waged against us and that most of their battle is won....because the British chose to look away at their own destruction just as long as the house prices went up and no one called them racist.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
The prime motivation is nearly always money. For example, despite the propaganda for the normies for the US the war in Ukraine is far more about protecting the interests of Halliburton, Blackrock, Exxon and Chevron than it is about the sold nonsense about democracy or Russia taking over Europe.....which it doesn't have the manpower for anyway.

For Israel itself.....Well, for the Jews there the motivation is honest....survival....Their survival as a Jewish state. The neocons in Israel have...probably rightly...taken the view that only a greater Israel ensures its long term survival with all its enemies defeated. To do that means killing a shitload of people...in truth more civilians than military.

I can't defend that morally but I see both sides of that argument and have expressed them however.....why the hell are we involved? (well in truth we all know why) But in a self interested sense why do we have to be fully enmeshed on one side when no one in the middle east actually gives a feck about the west other than taking its money and weapons and/or using it as a dumping ground.

None of these countries do anything for us other than cause us trouble, they buy our politicians and disfigure our politics, whichever side it is. Who sticks up for us?

On a political level I only have time for people who have an interest in preserving Europe as European. If they are Jewish or from the planet Neptune I'll stand with them. However, I'm not blind to the fact that foreign demographics and neo communists are waged against us and that most of their battle is won....because the British chose to look away at their own destruction just as long as the house prices went up.
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Why are we involved? We and the US are allies of Israel? Is that what you meant by ‘we all know why’, or are you inferring money? I suppose you have a point when you highlight what do they do for us, but then what do many countries (include plenty of them, especially France) do for us apart from trade or standing together (country leaders essentially) versus bigger international threats? Obviously a threat to France is very close to being a threat to us but what do they ever do for us?

This may sound ridiculous but Israel try to be involved in anything European they possibly can, whether it be football competitions or Eurovision. If they could be involved further then I’m sure they would.

As far as the actual conflict goes… I can’t blame Israel for retaliating to the slaughter of civilians from Hamas one side and rockets being fired by Hezbollah from another… but if we are involved in the supply of weapons with the US then we should have agreements with Israel on the limits to which they’re prepared to go, and what the end result is supposed to look like and possible.

I agree on the total lack of preserving Britain and Europe and that foreign demographics and neo communists are waged against us and that most of their battle is won…..because the British chose to look away as long at their own destruction just as long as the house prices went up. The explosion in property programmes was insane at the time. It became an obsession.

It’s always Islam. Islam this, Islam that. Allah Allah is the greatest. They could all do with a beer and a chaser.
 
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Rudi Hedman said:
Why are we involved? We and the US are allies of Israel? Is that what you meant by ‘we all know why’, or are you inferring money? I suppose you have a point when you highlight what do they do for us, but then what do many countries (include plenty of them, especially France) do for us apart from trade or standing together (country leaders essentially) versus bigger international threats? Obviously a threat to France is very close to being a threat to us but what do they ever do for us?

This may sound ridiculous but Israel try to be involved in anything European they possibly can, whether it be football competitions or Eurovision. If they could be involved further then I’m sure they would.

As far as the actual conflict goes… I can’t blame Israel for retaliating to the slaughter of civilians from Hamas one side and rockets being fired by Hezbollah from another… but if we are involved in the supply of weapons with the US then we should have agreements with Israel on the limits to which they’re prepared to go, and what the end result is supposed to look like and possible.

I agree on the total lack of preserving Britain and Europe and that foreign demographics and neo communists are waged against us and that most of their battle is won…..because the British chose to look away as long at their own destruction just as long as the house prices went up. The explosion in property programmes was insane at the time. It became an obsession.

It’s always Islam. Islam this, Islam that. Allah Allah is the greatest. They could all do with a beer and a chaser.
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By 'we all know why' I'm inferring the fact that politicians are bought and sold by backers far more than people like to think.....far more in the US but they are also heavily influenced here....for example, the conservatives voting to build a Holocaust museum right outside Parliament is a pretty clear cut example.....I mean, what the hell has the Holocaust got to do with Britain?....I suspect the 'friends of Israel' lobby and other like minded bodies had a lot to do with it. That isn't done without direct lobbying over years.

You question my own question on what on earth does someone like Britain get out of supporting Israel over say France.....To be honest I think you know the answers and partially answered it yourself.

Why we support them is multifactored....of course you get the emotional pleas in the mainstream because they prefer to ignore or hide the real practical reason.....it's because the US are essentially joined at the hip with Israel (bought and sold) and the US essentially gives us security along with trade guarantees that mean that our defence budget can be less than 3 percent. In Russia and Ukraine right now it's a total war economy with Russia at 40 percent and Ukraine...well I dread to think.

Go against the US as their client state and they will work against your economy just as they did against our empire when we had one.....if you read biographies of Powell he himself made this very clear, even though the media never covered it.

To add to it and relate it more to the French example, there is a limit to how much pro French sentiment or backing there is in Britain anyway. Also the history of French-British relations is extremely long and interconnected and thirdly they aren't party European (which is only partial in Israel anyway) they are fully European and don't have dual or even anti loyalties over that fact (the French people that is, rather than most of the ruling elites).

You say Israel want to be western.....I'm far more cynical about some of the motivations on that but I do recognise that many Jews are to varying degrees European and I accept them as such. However, my issue is far more with the behaviour of the Israeli security state rather than Jews in the west themselves (though again, only 30 percent of them are like you or me and vote right).

Ask yourself, if the roles were reversed would we be getting this support? Who stands up for us? Not many people know but Israel sold weapons and jets to the Argentinians during the Falklands conflict and we all know about the French supplying them as well.

Argentina: Military Support From Israel in 1982 – The Falkland Islands Association

Newly declassified files from the National Archives in Kew reveal that Israel supplied significant weaponry including strike aircraft to the
www.fiassociation.com www.fiassociation.com

My stance here will classically get called anti semitic.....somewhat amusingly as I remember accusing a Polish Hol poster of that on here years ago. However I refute that as it's not about someone being Jewish but purely a question of allegiance. My exact position is no different to that of a minority of prominent Jews themselves....Dave Smith for example being a well known Jew in the DR who doesn't connect being Jewish with a slavish defence of Israel.

I don't even have a problem with the obvious preference for Israel over their Islamic enemies. I do however suggest that what is going on within that whole region is the ignoring and defence of barbarism and genocide by a political class hopelessly cuckolded by money and in many cases threats of deselection. Why should I cheer on that state of affairs? A situation of 'support Israel or else'? How is that independence?

Israel aren't forcing out an invader here, these are people who have always lived on that land and indeed the vast majority of Israelis there migrated from various parts of the west after the Balfour declaration in the early 20s.....only between 1 and 3 percent were present there in 1882.

So I just say, this is a war of questionable morality that we are involved in as backers and only causes us trouble. Indeed, I think we should spend more time protecting Jews here in Britain from the growing threats of Islamic immigration. (which some of them like our Cornwell Jewish friend encourage).

When it comes to actions of foreign states we really have to ask ourselves, 'what is this to do with us'? and 'is this something we would do'? So I apply that moral question to the middle east. Israel are busy attacking other states and along with the US threatening Iran. We are talking about a situation with the potential for world war.

As with Ukraine, this has nothing to do with me or the country at large and I can only see negative outcomes.....I bulk at the emotional arguments presented in the media rather than the hard truths of financial and client state reasons behind it.....something that embarrasses me knowing the history of this once great country.

At least no one has explained to me what exactly we get out of any of this other than another 'bending over' loyalty display to the US.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
By 'we all know why' I'm inferring the fact that politicians are bought and sold by backers far more than people like to think.....far more in the US but they are also heavily influenced here....for example, the conservatives voting to build a Holocaust museum right outside Parliament is a pretty clear cut example.....I mean, what the hell has the Holocaust got to do with Britain?....I suspect the 'friends of Israel' lobby and other like minded bodies had a lot to do with it. That isn't done without direct lobbying over years.

You question my own question on what on earth does someone like Britain get out of supporting Israel over say France.....To be honest I think you know the answers and partially answered it yourself.

Why we support them is multifactored....of course you get the emotional pleas in the mainstream because they prefer to ignore or hide the real practical reason.....it's because the US are essentially joined at the hip with Israel (bought and sold) and the US essentially gives us security along with trade guarantees that mean that our defence budget can be less than 3 percent. In Russia and Ukraine right now it's a total war economy with Russia at 40 percent and Ukraine...well I dread to think.

Go against the US as their client state and they will work against your economy just as they did against our empire when we had one.....if you read biographies of Powell he himself made this very clear, even though the media never covered it.

To add to it and relate it more to the French example, there is a limit to how much pro French sentiment or backing there is in Britain anyway. Also the history of French-British relations is extremely long and interconnected and thirdly they aren't party European (which is only partial in Israel anyway) they are fully European and don't have dual or even anti loyalties over that fact (the French people that is, rather than most of the ruling elites).

You say Israel want to be western.....I'm far more cynical about some of the motivations on that but I do recognise that many Jews are to varying degrees European and I accept them as such. However, my issue is far more with the behaviour of the Israeli security state rather than Jews in the west themselves (though again, only 30 percent of them are like you or me and vote right).

Ask yourself, if the roles were reversed would we be getting this support? Who stands up for us? Not many people know but Israel sold weapons and jets to the Argentinians during the Falklands conflict and we all know about the French supplying them as well.

Argentina: Military Support From Israel in 1982 – The Falkland Islands Association

Newly declassified files from the National Archives in Kew reveal that Israel supplied significant weaponry including strike aircraft to the
www.fiassociation.com www.fiassociation.com

My stance here will classically get called anti semitic.....somewhat amusingly as I remember accusing a Polish Hol poster of that on here years ago. However I refute that as it's not about someone being Jewish but purely a question of allegiance. My exact position is no different to that of a minority of prominent Jews themselves....Dave Smith for example being a well known Jew in the DR who doesn't connect being Jewish with a slavish defence of Israel.

I don't even have a problem with the obvious preference for Israel over their Islamic enemies. I do however suggest that what is going on within that whole region is the ignoring and defence of barbarism and genocide by a political class hopelessly cuckolded by money and in many cases threats of deselection. Why should I cheer on that state of affairs? A situation of 'support Israel or else'? How is that independence?

Israel aren't forcing out an invader here, these are people who have always lived on that land and indeed the vast majority of Israelis there migrated from various parts of the west after the Balfour declaration in the early 20s.....only between 1 and 3 percent were present there in 1882.

So I just say, this is a war of questionable morality that we are involved in as backers and only causes us trouble. Indeed, I think we should spend more time protecting Jews here in Britain from the growing threats of Islamic immigration. (which some of them like our Cornwell Jewish friend encourage).

When it comes to actions of foreign states we really have to ask ourselves, 'what is this to do with us'? and 'is this something we would do'? So I apply that moral question to the middle east. Israel are busy attacking other states and along with the US threatening Iran. We are talking about a situation with the potential for world war.

As with Ukraine, this has nothing to do with me or the country at large and I can only see negative outcomes.....I bulk at the emotional arguments presented in the media rather than the hard truths of financial and client state reasons behind it.....something that embarrasses me knowing the history of this once great country.

At least no one has explained to me what exactly we get out of any of this other than another 'bending over' loyalty display to the US.
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I respect your position and don’t have a problem with it anyway. You’re not in support of the 2 terrorist groups and you’re not anti Israel or Jews or celebrating the terrorism or slaughter of Jews like we’re seeing from some. Also, I did say if we’re supplying arms to Israel then I’d like to have guarantees or at least their aims and what they look like. Wishful thinking probably.

The difference with the Jews in Israel is they’re surrounded by enemies who want to wipe them and their people off the map and out of existence. They would readily commit genocide themselves if Israel was weak enough.

I didn’t know until now that Israel and France supplied arms to Argentina during the Falklands war.

Was Kosowski the Polish hol poster who accused you of being antisemitic?
 
Rudi Hedman said:
I respect your position and don’t have a problem with it anyway. You’re not in support of the 2 terrorist groups and you’re not anti Israel or Jews or celebrating the terrorism or slaughter of Jews like we’re seeing from some. Also, I did say if we’re supplying arms to Israel then I’d like to have guarantees or at least their aims and what they look like. Wishful thinking probably.

The difference with the Jews in Israel is they’re surrounded by enemies who want to wipe them and their people off the map and out of existence. They would readily commit genocide themselves if Israel was weak enough.

I didn’t know until now that Israel and France supplied arms to Argentina during the Falklands war.

Was Kosowski the Polish hol poster who accused you of being antisemitic?
Click to expand...
The French supplied 'Super Etendard' aircraft that carried exocet missiles, 2 of which sunk my ship HMS Sheffield. The French also trained the pilots.
 
Rudi Hedman said:
I respect your position and don’t have a problem with it anyway. You’re not in support of the 2 terrorist groups and you’re not anti Israel or Jews or celebrating the terrorism or slaughter of Jews like we’re seeing from some. Also, I did say if we’re supplying arms to Israel then I’d like to have guarantees or at least their aims and what they look like. Wishful thinking probably.

The difference with the Jews in Israel is they’re surrounded by enemies who want to wipe them and their people off the map and out of existence. They would readily commit genocide themselves if Israel was weak enough.

I didn’t know until now that Israel and France supplied arms to Argentina during the Falklands war.

Was Kosowski the Polish hol poster who accused you of being antisemitic?
Click to expand...
I think it was me who accused him of it....years ago now.

I certainly agree with your analysis of the Israeli position. From a survival point of view if they want to exist as a fundamentally Jewish state they can't go with the slow demographic replacement that the globalist worldview has decided for the rest of the west.

That leads them into an existential crises, where they can't just sit on their hands......However, while I can recognise that for Israel I would argue that there are other ways they can go about protecting themselves.....but let's be real here, we and they know that once Iran get nukes (which now the cold war is back on is essentially assured) then Israel are right in the crosshairs.

Like Ukraine have been trying to bring the US in Israel have been essentially trying to drag America into an Iranian war, the same way they dragged them into Iraq and Syria. They want white and some black boys to die in their wars as some in the DR say.

When you analyse it there are no good solutions.....My preferred solution is that Egypt take Gaza with America giving them a king's ransom, as it's well known that Egypt's leadership had the Muslim brotherhood (closely aligned with the Hamas) executed when they took over. However, it would have to be with regional agreement and now that Israel are even more hated in the region I can't even see how that flies......Not that the 'greater Israel' neocons were ever going with that idea anyway.

The US and Israel only seem to be able to solve their problems with hard force and regime change. Given the new cold war.....which was a diplomatic failure and then choice......now that it's the reality that is a very scary place to be.

As I have two young boys I'm not best pleased with the direction all of this is going in. I'm not a young man full of piss and vinegar itching for action to fight foreign wars......not that today's young men are raised like we were. Nationalism with a small 'n' wasn't considered a dirty word and a military man was respected as was the British history and legacy.....Now we spend our time watching leftist institutions prosecute our guys who fought the IRA or had a dodgy kill in Iraq.....traitors in charge.

I've said it for many years....We need better elites. These guys have been in way over their heads and frankly don't deserve the titles nor paychecks.
 
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eagleman13 said:
The French supplied 'Super Etendard' aircraft that carried exocet missiles, 2 of which sunk my ship HMS Sheffield. The French also trained the pilots.
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Yeah I’ve never liked the French. I wouldn’t mind if we showed them some physical aggression now and then just to let them know now that fighting in rugby has gone since the days of Brian Moore and co giving them some.
 
Rudi Hedman said:
Yeah I’ve never liked the French. I wouldn’t mind if we showed them some physical aggression now and then just to let them know now that fighting in rugby has gone since the days of Brian Moore and co giving them some.
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I certainly wouldn't mind giving that Macron a slap.
 
Badger11 said:
The only thing I am certain of is that a load of Palestinian refugees (and some terrorists) will be heading our way some time soon.

A plague upon both your houses.
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They are already here.

Now they may have what they see as a just cause.

The only positive is that Iran does not sponsor any terrorism on our shores. The schism may be what protects us.
 
Stirlingsays said:
I think it was me who accused him of it....years ago now.

I certainly agree with your analysis of the Israeli position. From a survival point of view if they want to exist as a fundamentally Jewish state they can't go with the slow demographic replacement that the globalist worldview has decided for the rest of the west.

That leads them into an existential crises, where they can't just sit on their hands......However, while I can recognise that for Israel I would argue that there are other ways they can go about protecting themselves.....but let's be real here, we and they know that once Iran get nukes (which now the cold war is back on is essentially assured) then Israel are right in the crosshairs.

Like Ukraine have been trying to bring the US in Israel have been essentially trying to drag America into an Iranian war, the same way they dragged them into Iraq and Syria. They want white and some black boys to die in their wars as some in the DR say.

When you analyse it there are no good solutions.....My preferred solution is that Egypt take Gaza with America giving them a king's ransom, as it's well known that Egypt's leadership had the Muslim brotherhood (closely aligned with the Hamas) executed when they took over. However, it would have to be with regional agreement and now that Israel are even more hated in the region I can't even see how that flies......Not that the 'greater Israel' neocons were ever going with that idea anyway.

The US and Israel only seem to be able to solve their problems with hard force and regime change. Given the new cold war.....which was a diplomatic failure and then choice......now that it's the reality that is a very scary place to be.

As I have two young boys I'm not best pleased with the direction all of this is going in. I'm not a young man full of piss and vinegar itching for action to fight foreign wars......not that today's young men are raised like we were. Nationalism with a small 'n' wasn't considered a dirty word and a military man was respected as was the British history and legacy.....Now we spend our time watching leftist institutions prosecute our guys who fought the IRA or had a dodgy kill in Iraq.....traitors in charge.

I've said it for many years....We need better elites. These guys have been in way over their heads and frankly don't deserve the titles nor paychecks.
Click to expand...
The US will not try regime change again after the dismal failure with Iraq.

When the election stasis is passed, they and some of their allies will try to alter things with backroom diplomacy - bullying here, cajoling there - and a bit of hard prodding from the sidelines.

Israel won't tolerate Egypt moving their de facto border to the north of Gaza. The only countries with sufficient clout and resources but who have not had skin in the game are India and China. They would seek to pacify Gaza through the brutal sledgehammer of economic prosperity.

Never happen.
 
eagleman13 said:
The French supplied 'Super Etendard' aircraft that carried exocet missiles, 2 of which sunk my ship HMS Sheffield. The French also trained the pilots.
Click to expand...
Yes, but not with the express intent to battle the British.

There is always a risk that what you sell is badly used. We have made a fortunate out of that for centuries.

And during that same decade as the Falklands, we were the world's leading exporter of torture equipment. There is never any doubt what that gear will be used for.
 
silvertop said:
The US will not try regime change again after the dismal failure with Iraq.

When the election stasis is passed, they and some of their allies will try to alter things with backroom diplomacy - bullying here, cajoling there - and a bit of hard prodding from the sidelines.

Israel won't tolerate Egypt moving their de facto border to the north of Gaza. The only countries with sufficient clout and resources but who have not had skin in the game are India and China. They would seek to pacify Gaza through the brutal sledgehammer of economic prosperity.

Never happen.
Click to expand...

Personally I think the US are/were heavily invested in regime change in Iran, they just aren't interested in invading....don't blame them.

Now that the reaction to the 7th has happened what is possible in the region doesn't favour Iran nor the US as their clout in the region has largely gone.

The house of Saud didn't renew the petrodollar deal and looks to be heading off to brics probably along with two facing Turkey in some capacity.

If I look at this from the Israeli government's point of view they have allowed themselves to be caught a little in 'no man's land' and be cucked by their more liberal versions in Biden's administration....not surprisingly as they are providing most of the money and weapons.

However, as Machiavelli taught, if you hurt an opponent to your regime but don't finish them off it only results in a more determined opponent. So by going into Gaza (a big response was inevitable) and then Lebanon....Israel are left with the choice of genociding their enemies or being left in an situation that's even worse than when they started as now their enemies will be receiving better and more weapons from Russia and other brics countries thanks to the stupidity of escalating into a cold war.

I'm glad I'm not involved in any of it, it's a huge mess and from what I can see the people in power are only capable of worsening the picture.
 
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