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Israel v Hamas

Penge Eagle said:
Sorry, to clarify the 1:9 stat is urban warfare.

This ratio is much higher in urban areas for obvious reasons which make the Israel figures so remarkable.
Click to expand...
And complete IDF fiction.

Possibly the world's most densely populated place where Hamas combatants represent (at most) 1:100 and where the IDF rely on aerial bombing... You would have to be naive to believe they have achieved 1:2.
 
silvertop said:
And complete IDF fiction.

Possibly the world's most densely populated place where Hamas combatants represent (at most) 1:100 and where the IDF rely on aerial bombing... You would have to be naive to believe they have achieved 1:2.
Click to expand...
Such a travesty that Hamas use civilians as human shields and base themselves out of schools and hospitals. They do not care for Palestinian lives. How many people have they kept safe in their network of underground tunnels?

The IDF sends messages out to warn people an area will be targeted in advance. They have called off drone raids when areas are too heavily populated. Spot the moral differences.
 
The reporting of football violence is normally non-partisan. "Thugs fight on streets", is normally the headline. Regardless of who arrives tooled-up.
So you'll excuse my reluctance to believe that Israeli football fans travelled to a known hotbed of football thuggery with no intention of 'getting involved'

More bullox
 
I haven’t seen videos of the violence so cannot comment on it.

It does though seem to me that people are too quick to suggest protests against Israeli citizens is automatically anti semitism.

Any hatred towards anyone just because of their religious belief is unacceptable. Thus anti-semitism is unacceptable.

Showing opposition to the political attitudes of a country is not anti-semitism.

Hating someone because they are a Muslim is also unacceptable.

Opposing terrorism is not unacceptable.
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
I haven’t seen videos of the violence so cannot comment on it.

It does though seem to me that people are too quick to suggest protests against Israeli citizens is automatically anti semitism.

Any hatred towards anyone just because of their religious belief is unacceptable. Thus anti-semitism is unacceptable.

Showing opposition to the political attitudes of a country is not anti-semitism.

Hating someone because they are a Muslim is also unacceptable.

Opposing terrorism is not unacceptable.
Click to expand...
Going round asking if they were Jews and then beating them to a pulp, for being Jewish is anti-Semitic
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
The reporting of football violence is normally non-partisan. "Thugs fight on streets", is normally the headline. Regardless of who arrives tooled-up.
So you'll excuse my reluctance to believe that Israeli football fans travelled to a known hotbed of football thuggery with no intention of 'getting involved'

More bullox
Click to expand...
So every football fan who follows his team, to known “hotbed” of football thuggery is only going to get involved? Strange take imo.
Have you seen the videos? These aren’t fights between rival fans, these are premeditated ambushes.
Israelis still locked in hotels for their own safety. Bloody football violence, eh!
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
I haven’t seen videos of the violence so cannot comment on it.

It does though seem to me that people are too quick to suggest protests against Israeli citizens is automatically anti semitism.

Any hatred towards anyone just because of their religious belief is unacceptable. Thus anti-semitism is unacceptable.

Showing opposition to the political attitudes of a country is not anti-semitism.

Hating someone because they are a Muslim is also unacceptable.

Opposing terrorism is not unacceptable.
Click to expand...
It’s 6 posts back courtesy of the bbc. Video so you can make a comment !
 
ASCPFC said:
Israeli football fans attacked: Amsterdam mayor condemns 'hit and run' attacks on Israeli football supporters I hope Holland deports some of these.
Click to expand...
The Israelis tore down Palestinian flags that were draped from windows, shouted 'f*** the Arabs', sang 'There are no school because we killed all the kids'.


They are conducting a genocide against the Palestinians and are now bombing Lebanon indiscriminately, killing many hundreds of innocent men, women and children.


The mainstream media are fully in the Israel lobby pockets as are the UK, US and govs of the EU - aside from perhaps Spain who only recently stopped supplying military equipment - perhaps why the Israelis jeered during a minute silence for the flood victims.

Israel is an imperialist colonial project whose intent is to achieve a Jewish state from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean sea - it is written clearly in the Likud party's original charter.



Here is a little history of how Israel came to be and continues to be supported by the US.


The UK is a lap dog of the Israeli lobby. Here is a list of current MPs who receive benefits from the Israel lobby either in trips, gifts or support more generally: Israel lobby funded a quarter of British MPs

Notable mentions: "...Trevor Chinn, a long-time pro-Israel lobbyist who has financed eight members of Keir Starmer’s front bench, including his deputy Angela Rayner as well as shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves, shadow foreign secretary David Lammy and shadow health secretary Wes Streeting.

Chinn gave £50,000 to Starmer’s Labour leadership campaign. His donation was only disclosed after Starmer had won."

The mainstream media framing of the Amsterdam incidents are testament to their bias. The framing is that the Israelis are victims of antisemitic violence is absurd when there is clear provocation. The early BBC article showed Israeli football thugs attacking a Dutch citizen and framed it as violence against the Israelis. As pointed out by the journalist who video'd the event, it was misrepresented by the BBC. It is clear that there was violence, abuse and vandalism. If you had gone to a foreign country and aacted in such a way, you would expect a reaction.

Stop being idiots. The Israeli regime are the modern day Nazis. They use Palestinians as human shields, they boast about killing children (war crimes).

x.com

x.com x.com

Stop being mindless idiots and wake up. Don't be lazy. Don't be morons.
 
Badadmcmad said:
The Israelis tore down Palestinian flags that were draped from windows, shouted 'f*** the Arabs', sang 'There are no school because we killed all the kids'.


They are conducting a genocide against the Palestinians and are now bombing Lebanon indiscriminately, killing many hundreds of innocent men, women and children.


The mainstream media are fully in the Israel lobby pockets as are the UK, US and govs of the EU - aside from perhaps Spain who only recently stopped supplying military equipment - perhaps why the Israelis jeered during a minute silence for the flood victims.

Israel is an imperialist colonial project whose intent is to achieve a Jewish state from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean sea - it is written clearly in the Likud party's original charter.



Here is a little history of how Israel came to be and continues to be supported by the US.


The UK is a lap dog of the Israeli lobby. Here is a list of current MPs who receive benefits from the Israel lobby either in trips, gifts or support more generally: Israel lobby funded a quarter of British MPs

Notable mentions: "...Trevor Chinn, a long-time pro-Israel lobbyist who has financed eight members of Keir Starmer’s front bench, including his deputy Angela Rayner as well as shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves, shadow foreign secretary David Lammy and shadow health secretary Wes Streeting.

Chinn gave £50,000 to Starmer’s Labour leadership campaign. His donation was only disclosed after Starmer had won."

The mainstream media framing of the Amsterdam incidents are testament to their bias. The framing is that the Israelis are victims of antisemitic violence is absurd when there is clear provocation. The early BBC article showed Israeli football thugs attacking a Dutch citizen and framed it as violence against the Israelis. As pointed out by the journalist who video'd the event, it was misrepresented by the BBC. It is clear that there was violence, abuse and vandalism. If you had gone to a foreign country and aacted in such a way, you would expect a reaction.

Stop being idiots. The Israeli regime are the modern day Nazis. They use Palestinians as human shields, they boast about killing children (war crimes).

x.com

x.com x.com

Stop being mindless idiots and wake up. Don't be lazy. Don't be morons.
Click to expand...

I can agree with the Israeli lobby point, I regard this as foreign influence using the wallet. I can state that I don't agree with that. European countries should reject this insidious influence to buy a position on foreign affairs. But in truth it does the exact opposite because this is all interrelated to American influence, trade and defence spending.

Obviously Britain needs to be practical and live in financial reality, but by the same token, we aren't someone's b1tch.....Trump, Biden or whoever.

I've made the point before that I object to a holocaust museum being built outside of our parliament. I regard it as an insult to the British people as that holocaust had absolutely nothing to do with us.....besides the point that what lies behind the decision was lobby power. That building will inevitably become a target and another expensive flash point where we get endless amounts of virtue signalling and lecturing.

I would also agree with you on the real intention of the Israeli government.....with the important fact, that just as with Arabs and Palestinians there is opposition to their positions. A minority within both but it's an important fact because when we get a situation where people are being beaten on the streets that goes out the window.

However, you link to a video from Owen Jones, a literal communist who supports the importation of these conflicts all based upon his disastrous utopian ideals. He picks and chooses all the time and can hardly be seen as objective in any analysis on this topic.
Could I agree with the point that the media is extremely selective on what is puts before its audience.....of course....However, when that same media is doing it for what he supports he's fine with it.

My point being that he isn't objective and that his loyalties are not about Britain, they are inherently globalist and communist in nature.

I don't agree with the importation of blood feuds into this or European countries. It's the working class people who have to suffer this violence on their streets.....Their streets, not Jewish or Palestinian or Arab streets - their streets.

I try to be honest as I see it so I can agree with you somewhat on Likud's intentions. They made these decisions a long time ago, however I could point to Hamas and say much the same thing. Both are all or nothing. It's kill or be killed with them. However at least Likud allow elections and people a voice who disagree with them.....that hasn't happened with Hamas.....I still remember them throwing PLO members off of buildings.

I will make the point that what Likud are doing to the Muslims there is exactly what Arab countries did to both the Jewish and Christian populations in their own countries. All around that region you have Islamic countries with near 100 percent Islamic populations....that isn't an accident. It happened exactly because of the fact that they persecuted and murdered their Christian and Jewish populations out of these countries. They all come from the same Abrahamic religious origin but the Muslims are happy to insist on tolerance by the west and Israel while never having shown it themselves. So sorry if I regard this one eyed focus on Israel as a very modern reading that's missing a mirror.

The people who should resolve this issue are the region itself with the UN ensuring fair treatment.....but we know that's not going to happen due to the lack of objectivity and lobbies. Regardless, it has bugger all to do with Britain and I reject the guilt trips from either side.

When you say to Holers don't be lazy or be morons I think you are mostly missing out the fact that it's not really either of those.....they have chosen a side and while I might position myself as being an unapproving observer of these foreign tragedies I personally think that individuals....Just as you have.....get that choice.
 
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Badadmcmad said:
The Israelis tore down Palestinian flags that were draped from windows, shouted 'f*** the Arabs', sang 'There are no school because we killed all the kids'.


They are conducting a genocide against the Palestinians and are now bombing Lebanon indiscriminately, killing many hundreds of innocent men, women and children.


The mainstream media are fully in the Israel lobby pockets as are the UK, US and govs of the EU - aside from perhaps Spain who only recently stopped supplying military equipment - perhaps why the Israelis jeered during a minute silence for the flood victims.

Israel is an imperialist colonial project whose intent is to achieve a Jewish state from the river Jordan to the Mediterranean sea - it is written clearly in the Likud party's original charter.



Here is a little history of how Israel came to be and continues to be supported by the US.


The UK is a lap dog of the Israeli lobby. Here is a list of current MPs who receive benefits from the Israel lobby either in trips, gifts or support more generally: Israel lobby funded a quarter of British MPs

Notable mentions: "...Trevor Chinn, a long-time pro-Israel lobbyist who has financed eight members of Keir Starmer’s front bench, including his deputy Angela Rayner as well as shadow chancellor Rachel Reeves, shadow foreign secretary David Lammy and shadow health secretary Wes Streeting.

Chinn gave £50,000 to Starmer’s Labour leadership campaign. His donation was only disclosed after Starmer had won."

The mainstream media framing of the Amsterdam incidents are testament to their bias. The framing is that the Israelis are victims of antisemitic violence is absurd when there is clear provocation. The early BBC article showed Israeli football thugs attacking a Dutch citizen and framed it as violence against the Israelis. As pointed out by the journalist who video'd the event, it was misrepresented by the BBC. It is clear that there was violence, abuse and vandalism. If you had gone to a foreign country and aacted in such a way, you would expect a reaction.

Stop being idiots. The Israeli regime are the modern day Nazis. They use Palestinians as human shields, they boast about killing children (war crimes).

x.com

x.com x.com

Stop being mindless idiots and wake up. Don't be lazy. Don't be morons.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the advice. Personally I thought it was the Nazis that went around hunting for Jews during the 30/40s, I might be wrong of course. So the gangs in Amsterdam calling themselves “Jew hunters” are what? Are you condoning the vicious assaults on individuals by gangs? Seems like it. Of course that is your perogative. As an aside I am neither lazy or a moron but again your perogative to think so
 
Stirlingsays said:
I can agree with the Israeli lobby point, I regard this as foreign influence using the wallet. I can state that I don't agree with that. European countries should reject this insidious influence to buy a position on foreign affairs. But in truth it does the exact opposite because this is all interrelated to American influence, trade and defence spending.

Obviously Britain needs to be practical and live in financial reality, but by the same token, we aren't someone's b1tch.....Trump, Biden or whoever.

I've made the point before that I object to a holocaust museum being built outside of our parliament. I regard it as an insult to the British people as that holocaust had absolutely nothing to do with us.....besides the point that what lies behind the decision was lobby power. That building will inevitably become a target and another expensive flash point where we get endless amounts of virtue signalling and lecturing.

I would also agree with you on the real intention of the Israeli government.....with the important fact, that just as with Arabs and Palestinians there is opposition to their positions. A minority within both but it's an important fact because when we get a situation where people are being beaten on the streets that goes out the window.

However, you link to a video from Owen Jones, a literal communist who supports the importation of these conflicts all based upon his disastrous utopian ideals. He picks and chooses all the time and can hardly be seen as objective in any analysis on this topic.
Could I agree with the point that the media is extremely selective on what is puts before its audience.....of course....However, when that same media is doing it for what he supports he's fine with it.

My point being that he isn't objective and that his loyalties are not about Britain, they are inherently globalist and communist in nature.

I don't agree with the importation of blood feuds into this or European countries. It's the working class people who have to suffer this violence on their streets.....Their streets, not Jewish or Palestinian or Arab streets - their streets.

I try to be honest as I see it so I can agree with you somewhat on Likud's intentions. They made these decisions a long time ago, however I could point to Hamas and say much the same thing. Both are all or nothing. It's kill or be killed with them. However at least Likud allow elections and people a voice who disagree with them.....that hasn't happened with Hamas.....I still remember them throwing PLO members off of buildings.

I will make the point that what Likud are doing to the Muslims there is exactly what Arab countries did to both the Jewish and Christian populations in their own countries. All around that region you have Islamic countries with near 100 percent Islamic populations....that isn't an accident. It happened exactly because of the fact that they persecuted and murdered their Christian and Jewish populations out of these countries. They all come from the same Abrahamic religious origin but the Muslims are happy to insist on tolerance by the west and Israel while never having shown it themselves. So sorry if I regard this one eyed focus on Israel as a very modern reading that's missing a mirror.

The people who should resolve this issue are the region itself with the UN ensuring fair treatment.....but we know that's not going to happen due to the lack of objectivity and lobbies. Regardless, it has bugger all to do with Britain and I reject the guilt trips from either side.

When you say to Holers don't be lazy or be morons I think you are mostly missing out the fact that it's not really either of those.....they have chosen a side and while I might position myself as being an unapproving observer of these foreign tragedies I personally think that individuals....Just as you have.....get that choice.
Click to expand...

Part 1

Yes, following the money, the US economy underpins the funding (to the tune of many billions of dollars) to arm Israel and enable its genocide in the region. The US tax payer underpins the money sent to Israel which they spend on US weapons which are used to ethnically cleanse Palestine. The military complex gets paid, the Israeli regime gets what it wants (expansion), the Israel lobby (AIPAC and others) pay handsomely to elect senators as well as MPs in the UK.

----------

"Obviously Britain needs to be practical and live in financial reality, but by the same token, we aren't someone's b1tch..."

I disagree strongly. The UK is very much beholden to the US. This has been the case really since WW2 where we saw the UK handing over much of what you would consider its IP and industry (jet engine tech for example) to the US in return for the US's intervention and assistance in the war. Skip to 20 years ago, you have Blair bending over backwards and entering the UK into an illegal invasion of Iraq under false pretences of the existence of WMDs all to the benefit of oil cartel and the neo-liberal machine (Cheney, Halliburton etc). Insight to the the modern day situation is described here:


The hot take highlighted in the first seconds is that the UK is still selling industry to the yanks. You can add L3Harris, Cobham etc.

Annually it is estimated that the UK pay the US £100bill annually based on US investments. Amazon Web Services underpin UK security service infrastructure instead of our own, the interview and book cite many others.

----------

"I would also agree with you on the real intention of the Israeli government.....with the important fact, that just as with Arabs and Palestinians there is opposition to their positions. A minority within both but it's an important fact because when we get a situation where people are being beaten on the streets that goes out the window."

Not 100% sure on what you're saying here tbh. The Likud charter is a matter of record. It is fact. It is entirely consistent with the actions of Netneyahu and his predecessors. The ongoing creep of illegal occupation, ethnic cleansing and resettlement. That is the Zionist project.

In the same breath you mention Arabs and Palestinians (as general groups - not reasonably specific groups such as Hezbollah or Hamas, but the whole ethnic or national group). If you could just clarify the point you are making, that would be helpful.

I very much recognise the distinction between the fascist and non-fascist elements of Israeli society. For brevity, I refer to the Israeli regime and do not tar all with the same brush. There are very many heroic and brave Israeli Jews who staunchly oppose the genocide. That fact is not in question and really goes without saying because they are not the problem. The same is said of Palestinians, and Arabs. There are the fanatics, the fascists the religious nutters.
 
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Stirlingsays said:
I can agree with the Israeli lobby point, I regard this as foreign influence using the wallet. I can state that I don't agree with that. European countries should reject this insidious influence to buy a position on foreign affairs. But in truth it does the exact opposite because this is all interrelated to American influence, trade and defence spending.

Obviously Britain needs to be practical and live in financial reality, but by the same token, we aren't someone's b1tch.....Trump, Biden or whoever.

I've made the point before that I object to a holocaust museum being built outside of our parliament. I regard it as an insult to the British people as that holocaust had absolutely nothing to do with us.....besides the point that what lies behind the decision was lobby power. That building will inevitably become a target and another expensive flash point where we get endless amounts of virtue signalling and lecturing.

I would also agree with you on the real intention of the Israeli government.....with the important fact, that just as with Arabs and Palestinians there is opposition to their positions. A minority within both but it's an important fact because when we get a situation where people are being beaten on the streets that goes out the window.

However, you link to a video from Owen Jones, a literal communist who supports the importation of these conflicts all based upon his disastrous utopian ideals. He picks and chooses all the time and can hardly be seen as objective in any analysis on this topic.
Could I agree with the point that the media is extremely selective on what is puts before its audience.....of course....However, when that same media is doing it for what he supports he's fine with it.

My point being that he isn't objective and that his loyalties are not about Britain, they are inherently globalist and communist in nature.

I don't agree with the importation of blood feuds into this or European countries. It's the working class people who have to suffer this violence on their streets.....Their streets, not Jewish or Palestinian or Arab streets - their streets.

I try to be honest as I see it so I can agree with you somewhat on Likud's intentions. They made these decisions a long time ago, however I could point to Hamas and say much the same thing. Both are all or nothing. It's kill or be killed with them. However at least Likud allow elections and people a voice who disagree with them.....that hasn't happened with Hamas.....I still remember them throwing PLO members off of buildings.

I will make the point that what Likud are doing to the Muslims there is exactly what Arab countries did to both the Jewish and Christian populations in their own countries. All around that region you have Islamic countries with near 100 percent Islamic populations....that isn't an accident. It happened exactly because of the fact that they persecuted and murdered their Christian and Jewish populations out of these countries. They all come from the same Abrahamic religious origin but the Muslims are happy to insist on tolerance by the west and Israel while never having shown it themselves. So sorry if I regard this one eyed focus on Israel as a very modern reading that's missing a mirror.

The people who should resolve this issue are the region itself with the UN ensuring fair treatment.....but we know that's not going to happen due to the lack of objectivity and lobbies. Regardless, it has bugger all to do with Britain and I reject the guilt trips from either side.

When you say to Holers don't be lazy or be morons I think you are mostly missing out the fact that it's not really either of those.....they have chosen a side and while I might position myself as being an unapproving observer of these foreign tragedies I personally think that individuals....Just as you have.....get that choice.
Click to expand...

Part 2

-----------
On Owen Jones. You criticise him for not being objective. You cast aspersions that he is a communist. So what? Is what he has presented in the supplied factual and truthful? Do you have objective evidence to disprove his assertions?
In this case, it is clear you are not being objective but prejudicial. You engage in an ad hominem attack without challenging, objectively the evidence and arguments he has presented. This is clear and obvious hypocrisy when you state Jones "can hardly be seen as objective in any analysis on this topic."
Owen Jones at least has a First Class Honours Degree from Oxford in History. He describes himself as a democratic socialist - not a communist.
www.varsity.co.uk

Interview: Owen Jones

'Welfare cuts are going to inflict misery on hundreds of thousands; it's going to destroy lives...', the popular left-wing commentator and author of 'Chavs' tells Varsity
www.varsity.co.uk www.varsity.co.uk
With respect, I refer you to my ending statements of my post regarding laziness etc.
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'I don't agree with the importation of blood feuds into this or European countries.'
Am I correct in understanding from this point you make that you consider upholding our responsibilities under international humanitarian law as it relates to providing refuge and asylum for those subject to persecution as 'the importation of blood feuds'? Please correct me if i'm wrong in that interpretation.
If I am correct, should you not be arguing against the presence of the other side of the coin? What I mean is that you argue that presumably Palestinian refugees shouldn't be given asylum in European countries because of their blood feud... but don't the anti-Palestinian types also have a blood feud which you should also challenge?
I might be incorrect in my understanding of what you are saying here so please correct me if I'm wrong.
--------------
"I try to be honest as I see it so I can agree with you somewhat on Likud's intentions. They made these decisions a long time ago, however I could point to Hamas and say much the same thing."
Yet you acknowledge that Israel's intentions have not changed and I'm sure you'll agree their actions are 100% in line with that original charter (Netenyahu did show maps after all and is exterminating the Palestinian population from the region). [Aside, there is also a quote from a former UK ambassador from a dinner event where he quotes Netenyahu saying the next war will be the last].
In terms of this 'oh it was a long time ago' non-argument, what does the most recent Hamas charter say, for instance? I believe, and I'll let you confirm, that their fight is against the ocupation and the Zionist project and that they seek a 2 state solution based on 1967 Oslo accords. That update I think was 2018. So I'd argue that Hamas (which is not universally supported), objectively have shifted position since their original charter of 1988 (IIRC), whereas Likud haven't since 1977.
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I'll not go into ancient religious conflicts by region further than to say that Europe is probably close to 100% Christian as much as the middle East, as you postulate, is 100% muslim. I wonder how Europe might have come to be so? A peaceful and respectful exchange of ideas? Or war? I don't think your arguments on that front are going to particularly sound or persuasive.
"So sorry if I regard this one eyed focus on Israel as a very modern reading that's missing a mirror"
The issue here is that Israel is committing a genocide at this exact moment. My position is that genocide is about the worst thing one group can do to another and it should be stopped. I mean, we were taught all about the Nazis at school and how bad they were, right? So why are we supporting a genocide now? Why should we not be focussed on that? The Palestinians are not exterminating the Jews - they are utterly incapable of doing so. The Arab world, are not targetting Israeli citizens in their retaliations to Israeli aggression as evidenced by the Iranian rocket attack that sadly killed 1 Palestinian but objectively only targetted military installations...
I'm afraid that you are being lazy here and just parroting Israeli propaganda (yes, I have heard your exact talking points regarding the ancient history before from Israeli propagandists). This line of argument is very weak and not demonstrative of critical thinking, I'm saddened to say.
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"The people who should resolve this issue are the region itself with the UN ensuring fair treatment.....but we know that's not going to happen due to the lack of objectivity and lobbies. "
"In addition to financial and military aid, the U.S. provides large-scale political support, having used its United Nations Security Council veto power 42 times against resolutions condemning Israel, out of 83 times in which its veto has been used."
- Israel–United States relations - Wikipedia.
So there have been plenty of UN resolutions to condemn Israeli actions. Yet they are consistently vetoed by the US, stymieing effective action.
The UK have abstained which does not act in the interest of resolution rather continuation and procrastination. When you consider the evidence of the influence of the Israeli lobby (which you accept is present), then it's really not a leap to understand the position.
www.bbc.co.uk

UN General Assembly demands Israel ends occupation of Palestinian territories

Israel denounces the Palestinian-drafted, non-binding resolution as "diplomatic terrorism".
www.bbc.co.uk
www.gov.uk

The UK’s explanation of vote on the UN General Assembly resolution on the ICJ’s Advisory Opinion on Israel’s presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories

Explanation of vote by Ambassador Barbara Woodward, UK Permanent Representative to the UN, on the UN General Assembly resolution on the ICJ’s Advisory Opinion on Israel’s presence in the Occupied Palestinian Territories – Wednesday 18 September 2024.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
When you also consider the military support the UK offers to Israel, including parts supply of F35 fighters which have been documented as being used in the bombing and murder of civilians and the airborne surveillance the UK has undertaken on behalf of the Israeli state, then any notion that the UK is not complicit or involved is for the birds.
"Regardless, it has bugger all to do with Britain" - this is utter tosh, I'm afraid.
I'll add that historically, the UK was pivotal in the creation of Israel and has been very closely involved with its military industrial complex. The UK has the like of Elbit systems, and Israeli owned defence contractor and its decision to ban only a small number of arms licenses is an admission that the UK considers itself potentially complicit in war crimes based on the continued supply of Israel.
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"When you say to Holers don't be lazy or be morons I think you are mostly missing out the fact that it's not really either of those.....they have chosen a side and while I might position myself as being an unapproving observer of these foreign tragedies I personally think that individuals....Just as you have.....get that choice."
You touch on an important observation of human behaviour. The choosing of sides. Tribalism has a purpose and there is an innate desire for humans to form tribes.
However, it is also one of human kinds greatest stumbling blocks. Nazis were a tribe and did horrific things - more than likely there were some who, if not for the peer pressure that comes with belonging to a tribe, wouldn't have done the heinous acts they did.
When I refer to people being lazy and morons, it's likely partly due to frustration at individuals' inability to see when this sense of tribalism, or cultishness at its extreme end, prevents them from making sound, objective and principled choices.

Don't get me wrong, as I've eluded to in this response, the laziness is also apparent in arguments that are put forward. I have highlighted, with evidence some of those times where I think you've just not done your homework and have presented bad arguments that had you spent time researching properly, you may well have thought differently or come up with a more persuasive and justifiable argument.
There are limits and I hope people can pick my arguments apart as that helps me to broaden my understanding. What helps me is to be self critical and also ask what I don't know and be honest about it. Then seek that knowledge...
 
Spiderman said:
Thanks for the advice. Personally I thought it was the Nazis that went around hunting for Jews during the 30/40s, I might be wrong of course. So the gangs in Amsterdam calling themselves “Jew hunters” are what? Are you condoning the vicious assaults on individuals by gangs? Seems like it. Of course that is your perogative. As an aside I am neither lazy or a moron but again your perogative to think so
Click to expand...

Firstly, please provide references for the gangs calling themselves "Jew Hunters". It is lazy not to provide references when you quote.

I do not condone violence as you describe. In fact my post should be evidence enough to show as such. In one video it is made clear by the person video'ing it, that there is of a gang of Isreali fans viciously attacking a lone Dutch individual. I condemn that behaviour as well as the incorrect framing of the events in that video by the BBC.

Yet, you are arguing that I condone the attack by the Israeli gang when you say it "Seems like it"...

Thank you for being the perfect case study.
 
Spiderman said:
So every football fan who follows his team, to known “hotbed” of football thuggery is only going to get involved? Strange take imo.
Have you seen the videos? These aren’t fights between rival fans, these are premeditated ambushes.
Israelis still locked in hotels for their own safety. Bloody football violence, eh!
Click to expand...
I’d guess that there’s a mixture of some Israeli fans looking for/asking for/bringing trouble on and groups of Israeli fans being started on for little or no reason. We’ve all seen football fans tarred with the same brush and some of us have experienced real life so I think we can be sure it isn’t as simple as a one sentence explanation.
 
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