Israel v Hamas

[Rudi Hedman]

Doubt a tear will be shed in most places for the loss of this unit.

Doubt we will ever know how many hundreds of non-combatant innocents (especially children) were killed as collateral by the IDF fighting their way to kill him.

The HF will be wearing black arm bands for a week. Seriously though, we’ll probably see some mourning at the Palestine march tomorrow, which is probably illegal but will go unpunished no doubt. He’ll probably be held as some sort of martyr which will inspire the next lunatic.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Doubt a tear will be shed in most places for the loss of this unit.

Doubt we will ever know how many hundreds of non-combatant innocents (especially children) were killed as collateral by the IDF fighting their way to kill him.

Well, the Israeli government are clearly locked into a struggle with Biden's administration to starve them out and have the UN resettle them in Europe so innocents dying alongside leaders means nothing within that context.

They seem determined to use America money and weapons to just continue to bomb their enemies and make aid so difficult and risky that those places become unsurvivable. It doesn't take a genius to work out the truth from the lies our leaders sell.

Obviously on a moral footing the west is incredibly harmed by all this. I can point to how Islam took over the middle east and butchered people and/or threw them out.....However, if I don't defend or mealy mouth that so why should I give Israel a pass? The blood of women and children is the blood of women and children wherever it is......ours are more important but that doesn't make me feel good about the powerless dying.

I long for elites who actually have the interests of their native peoples at heart rather than big business, banks and personal power.....but hey, apparently that's populist. We should have little to do with what goes on over there.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Doubt a tear will be shed in most places for the loss of this unit.

Doubt we will ever know how many hundreds of non-combatant innocents (especially children) were killed as collateral by the IDF fighting their way to kill him.

Israel has been very targeted in avoiding non-combatant innocents, especially as Hamas has been using them as human shields (and have admitted this).

According to the UN, the typical combatant-to-civilian death ratio is a 1:9 ratio in war (one combatant for every nine civilians).

In Gaza, the ratio has been less than 1:2 – for every combatant killed, around 1.5 civilians have been killed. Here, the IDF should be applauded.

EDIT: To clarify, the 1:9 stat is urban warfare.

 

[Houston Eagle]

That's a different way to look at it, for sure!!!

I'm sure the IDF haven't diluted their capability with DEI WOKE ideals in their armed forces. From a military perspective the western world should take note as this is truly a life and death job where pronouns mean nothing in wartime combat.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Israel has been very targeted in avoiding non-combatant innocents, especially as Hamas has been using them as human shields (and have admitted this).

According to the UN, the typical combatant-to-civilian death ratio is a 1:9 ratio in war (one combatant for every nine civilians).

In Gaza, the ratio has been less than 1:2 – for every combatant killed, around 1.5 civilians have been killed. Here, the IDF should be applauded.

I get it, you are very much for Israel in this war....but 1:9?

For modern armies? I'd like to see what data set that includes as I doubt it's for modern western armies in modern times.

To illustrate that point do you think that in Ukraine now Russia is killing nine civilians for every Ukrainian soldier? No, as most (not all) of the civilians near front lines cleared off. That can't happen in these residential areas in Gaza and Lebanon.

1:2? What is the difference between a Hamas fighter and some teenage boy for example? Who is deciding that divide?

I say don't believe anything any of what these security services push into the media? It's just propaganda in an information war.

It isn't too hard to have a rough guess on how many people are dying.....All you need to know is how many people are contained within an area and then how much and what type of ordinance is being dropped in the area.

But hey, for obvious reasons you aren't being told that.

 

[Penge Eagle]

I get it, you are very much for Israel in this war....but 1:9?

For modern armies? I'd like to see what data set that includes as I doubt it's for modern western armies in modern times.

To illustrate that point do you think that in Ukraine now Russia is killing nine civilians for every Ukrainian soldier? No, as most (not all) of the civilians near front lines cleared off. That can't happen in these residential areas in Gaza and Lebanon.

1:2? What is the difference between a Hamas fighter and some teenage boy for example? Who is deciding that divide?

I say don't believe anything any of what these security services push into the media? It's just propaganda in an information war.

It isn't too hard to have a rough guess on how many people are dying.....All you need to know is how many people are contained within an area and then how much and what type of ordinance is being dropped in the area.

But hey, for obvious reasons you aren't being told that.

Sorry, to clarify the 1:9 stat is urban warfare.

This ratio is much higher in urban areas for obvious reasons which make the Israel figures so remarkable.

 

[dreamwaverider]

Sorry, to clarify the 1:9 stat is urban warfare.

This ratio is much higher in urban areas for obvious reasons which make the Israel figures so remarkable.

In a similar vain, surely Hamas should now reconsider their excessive demands in negotiating a ceasefire. Demanding a 10:1 ratio of Hamas prisoners exchanged per Israeli hostage is extreme. Hopefully they will consider settling now on a 1:1 basis.

 

[eagleman13]

Sunday 17th Nov, central London, Jewish Veterans Remembrance:

"Veterans !
November 17th is the Association of Jewish ex Service people Remembrance in London
If you are a veteran ( or family ) and support Israel then join us there."

Hope to god this goes off peacefully.

 

[ASCPFC]

I get it, you are very much for Israel in this war....but 1:9?

For modern armies? I'd like to see what data set that includes as I doubt it's for modern western armies in modern times.

To illustrate that point do you think that in Ukraine now Russia is killing nine civilians for every Ukrainian soldier? No, as most (not all) of the civilians near front lines cleared off. That can't happen in these residential areas in Gaza and Lebanon.

1:2? What is the difference between a Hamas fighter and some teenage boy for example? Who is deciding that divide?

I say don't believe anything any of what these security services push into the media? It's just propaganda in an information war.

It isn't too hard to have a rough guess on how many people are dying.....All you need to know is how many people are contained within an area and then how much and what type of ordinance is being dropped in the area.

But hey, for obvious reasons you aren't being told that.

The 1:9 probably comes from conflicts like WW2 and Vietnam. Probably includes all the people the Nazis and Russians murdered. Many of them, their own.

 

[Stirlingsays]

The 1:9 probably comes from conflicts like WW2 and Vietnam. Probably includes all the people the Nazis and Russians murdered. Many of them, their own.

That's my suspicion as well.

Modern warfare where civilians are 'meant' to be more valued and bombing can be many more times precise means that data sets that include older metrics give doubtful impressions.

Also the source of death breakdowns is extremely doubtful.....It's like listing what the Russia or Ukrainian governments are saying about casualties....it's mostly obvious lying and the actual truth won't be known for some time yet.

Essentially I'm very down on the honesty of intelligence and security services as they literally engage in deliberate lying to the public in the service of supporting whatever policies their paying bosses require of them...They openly admit to it when describing 'information wars'.....I first noticed it in Iraq, but no doubt it's always happened....independent of country or intelligence service. I was much happier when I thought we actually had certain standards we wouldn't drop below.

If you are actually someone interested in truth, warts and all, then you have to stop buying the slop and actually observe.

I use to be someone very proud.....but if you actually come from a position where you believed that the western mindset had a level of noble values....Well, at least an attempt at them....it's quickly dashed when you realise that these fellas really don't give a feck. It's a power game and nothing else.

The people who had your back died generations ago.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

The use of starvation and disease (on top of military action), as a means to kill entire sections of a population appears to be a new low in modern military warfare. Of course, the figures for this tactic evade inclusion of deaths by military action.
In fact , the information war is so diverse and conflicting, it is very difficult to know exactly what is happening 'out there'. Most of the photographs I see are of concrete piles of rubble , where towns and cities have been razed to the ground.
American and British arms pour into Israel in a prolonged effort to 'stabilise the region'. Haven't World Leaders learnt anything from the two Gulf Wars and Afghanistan ?

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

A Heinous crime,....bumping your own thread.

Like Yemen and other conflicts around the world the West is largely supplying arms to, civilians are still the biggest victims.

• • 25 October 2024

The UN human rights chief has said the Gaza war's “darkest moment” is unfolding in the north of the territory, where Israel has said it is carrying out a ground offensive to stop Hamas fighters from regrouping.

“As we speak, the Israeli military is subjecting an entire population to bombing, siege and risk of starvation,” Volker Türk said.

He called on world leaders to act, saying states had a duty under the Geneva Conventions to ensure respect for international humanitarian law.

 

[ASCPFC]

The use of starvation and disease (on top of military action), as a means to kill entire sections of a population appears to be a new low in modern military warfare. Of course, the figures for this tactic evade inclusion of deaths by military action.
In fact , the information war is so diverse and conflicting, it is very difficult to know exactly what is happening 'out there'. Most of the photographs I see are of concrete piles of rubble , where towns and cities have been razed to the ground.
American and British arms pour into Israel in a prolonged effort to 'stabilise the region'. Haven't World Leaders learnt anything from the two Gulf Wars and Afghanistan ?

I can assure you that British arms are not pouring in. They don't buy from the UK anymore. Countries like Turkey and India supply far more.

 

[Glazier#1]

The prime motivation is nearly always money (allied to regime change policy in Russia). For example, despite the propaganda for the normies for the US the war in Ukraine is far more about protecting the interests of Halliburton, Blackrock, Exxon and Chevron than it is about the sold nonsense about democracy or Russia taking over Europe.....which it doesn't have the manpower for anyway.

For Israel itself.....Well, for the Jews there the motivation is honest....survival....Their survival as a Jewish state. The neocons in Israel have...probably rightly...taken the view that only a greater Israel ensures its long term survival with all its enemies defeated. To do that means killing a shitload of people...in truth more civilians than military.

I can't defend that morally but I see both sides of that argument and have expressed them however.....why the hell are we involved? (well in truth we all know why) But in a self interested sense why do we have to be fully enmeshed on one side when no one in the middle east actually gives a feck about the west other than taking its money and weapons and/or using it as a dumping ground.

None of these countries do anything for us other than cause us trouble, they buy our politicians and disfigure our politics, whichever side it is. Who sticks up for us?

On a political level I only have time for people who have an interest in preserving Europe as European. If they are Jewish or from the planet Neptune I'll stand with them. However, I'm not blind to the fact that foreign demographics and neo communists are waged against us and that most of their battle is won....because the British chose to look away at their own destruction just as long as the house prices went up and no one called them racist.

No idea what one of those is. Can you tell the boards, your fellow posters, how you would define such a person. Or are you still going trappist on answering such questions from me?

 

[Stirlingsays]

No idea what one of those is. Can you tell the boards, your fellow posters, how you would define such a person. Or are you still going trappist on answering such questions from me?

Of course you don't.

I suspect it's a predicament you find yourself in often.

 

[Glazier#1]

The use of starvation and disease (on top of military action), as a means to kill entire sections of a population appears to be a new low in modern military warfare. Of course, the figures for this tactic evade inclusion of deaths by military action.
In fact , the information war is so diverse and conflicting, it is very difficult to know exactly what is happening 'out there'. Most of the photographs I see are of concrete piles of rubble , where towns and cities have been razed to the ground.
American and British arms pour into Israel in a prolonged effort to 'stabilise the region'. Haven't World Leaders learnt anything from the two Gulf Wars and Afghanistan ?

Not so sure how 'new' this is. You say 'modern' but it was used in the Warsaw ghetto, was it not?

Ironic.

 

[Glazier#1]

Of course you don't.

I suspect it's a predicament you find yourself in often.

Oh. How enlightening! haha.

But no, of course I don't. What is a neo communist, Stirling?

 

[Stirlingsays]

Oh. How enlightening! haha.

But no, of course I don't. What is a neo communist, Stirling?

You and your questions....can't you research stuff?

Ok, I'll relent but I can't help but suspect this is you saying you don't know what the word 'neo' means.

It's essentially modern day 'progressivism', it's not old communism as such as it contains aspects of neoliberalism and property rights but outside of that it retains all the core principles. The way I think of it is something like a belief in luxury communism, which is why I call these ideas new.....it's mostly middle and higher class people promoting communist concepts for others while their personal advantages mean they get to pick and choose in their personal lives.

Owen Jones....Ash Sakar types.

These are people who have never had to live within communism thinking that if we could just tweak these aspects we have a better world......deluded morons could be another term for them, but I prefer to be kind.

 

[Glazier#1]

You and your questions....can't you research stuff?

Ok, I'll relent but I can't help but suspect this is you saying you don't know what the word 'neo' means.

It's essentially modern day 'progressivism', it's not old communism as such as it contains aspects of neoliberalism and property rights but outside of that it retains all the core principles. The way I think of it is something like a belief in luxury communism, which is why I call these ideas new.....it's mostly middle and higher class people promoting communist concepts for others while their personal advantages mean they get to pick and choose in their personal lives.

Owen Jones....Ash Sakar types.

These are people who have never had to live within communism thinking that if we could just tweak these aspects we have a better world......deluded morons could be another term for them, but I prefer to be kind.

'Research stuff'.

Well ok but these terms seem to be very elastic with people on here.

I still have trouble in defining why these terms are used.

We might say that a 'mixed economy' - a mix of central government and free enterprise is 'communist' or even 'neo communist' then, because in such an economy in the UK, we have, for instance, the NHS. Now, we know that this whole concept of the NHS is centralised and not private medicine. Is this arrangement, according to you, 'neo-communist', then? Are you anti the whole idea of the NHS?

Is 'neo communism' anything that means centralised government has a say in people's lives? In short, does it mean anything that is not privatised?

What are 'all the core principles' to which you refer? You see, I'm seeking clarification because, otherwise there's a danger that we start to bandy around terms which are flabby and non-specific.

I heard an American voter talking about the election and he said that he'll vote Trump because 'we don't want communists here'. Communists in the USA? Is he blind? Deaf? or what? The idea that any communist would thrive politically in the USA is absolutely absurd yet he's quite happy to roll it out.

It's the same on these boards. How many people on here who use that term actually have any idea what Marxist theory is about? Yet still 'communist' is thrown around liberally. Often used but seldom understood.

'Deluded morons' not helpful at all, Stirling.

 

[Stirlingsays]

'Research stuff'.

Well ok but these terms seem to be very elastic with people on here.

I still have trouble in defining why these terms are used.

We might say that a 'mixed economy' - a mix of central government and free enterprise is 'communist' or even 'neo communist' then, because in such an economy in the UK, we have, for instance, the NHS. Now, we know that this whole concept of the NHS is centralised and not private medicine. Is this arrangement, according to you, 'neo-communist', then? Are you anti the whole idea of the NHS?

Is 'neo communism' anything that means centralised government has a say in people's lives? In short, does it mean anything that is not privatised?

What are 'all the core principles' to which you refer? You see, I'm seeking clarification because, otherwise there's a danger that we start to bandy around terms which are flabby and non-specific.

I heard an American voter talking about the election and he said that he'll vote Trump because 'we don't want communists here'. Communists in the USA? Is he blind? Deaf? or what? The idea that any communist would thrive politically in the USA is absolutely absurd yet he's quite happy to roll it out.

It's the same on these boards. How many people on here who use that term actually have any idea what Marxist theory is about? Yet still 'communist' is thrown around liberally. Often used but seldom understood.

'Deluded morons' not helpful at all, Stirling.

The problem with fixed terms is exactly that... they can't change. But due to technological, economic (financial) and the managemental changes the nature of the political environment changes and thus political approaches and description have to change to fit that environment. So your charge of elasticity with terms is more a feature of political reality than a bug.

However, the terms I use aren't made up on the spot and have been a part of political discourse for a long time....obviously not in your political circles.

However, It's perfectly valid to ask questions if you feel the need to. A 'mixed economy' has never been communist as it requires central control as a core principle so obviously a mixed one is a deviation.

'Mixed economies are to an extent the natural nature of governance long before something like the NHS...for example, armies, police, taxes, the list goes on.....however as a planned and deliberate expanded policy it is at its nature socialist not communist.

I'm not anti the idea of the NHS in principle, but it's a luxury born of a successful society and only came about from politics that has little to do with modern attitudes, economic or cultural. Indeed, the distance from where we are now compared to its original vision is oceanic in measure. Its long term future is in doubt due to what it has become, not what it was.

No, 'neo communism' isn't just restricted to economics, far from it. In an earlier post I had posted a link to a video explaining the rise and success of modern day progressivism within the west and that informs you that what we are talking about encompasses all of society.....obviously that's far from just the government being a busy body in people's lives. If you want to have a fuller explanation of how modern day 'neo communism' came about and how we got to these terms I have a video I've posted before. I'll post it again here.

The chap in America you are referring to is talking not about economics but of the societal changes that progressivism has been promoting and mandating legally and via corporations..Not only is he being hit with legal requirements he doesn't agree with he's getting it promoted with media and entertainment and being taught to his children in schools......Affirmative action, DEI, ESG, trans and alphabet ideology, critical race theory...BLM.....He's correct when he refers to this as communism....though technically it's more Maoist in nature than soviet.

He's obviously not talking just about economics.

Sure, 'deluded morons' isn't helpful.....but I've been called a 'neo nazi' and just nazi plenty of times on Hol and I don't recall anyone on the left complaining about that insult being used. People like Owen Jones and Sakar, aren't morons in the sense of being stupid, far from it.....but as their ideology will and already has worsened society and if allowed to continue on, the lives of my children, I'm fine with calling them deluded morons.....They'd call me worse.