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Israel v Hamas

What wasn't mentioned was the daily oppression that Palestinian citizens lived under. they were in fact second-class citizens in a society than practised apartheid. Last in to see the doctor, water supplies regularly interrupted, food shortages, power cuts when electricity was most needed, and barred access from some specific areas. Coupled with Israeli armed invaders regularly encroaching on Palestinian land, bulldozing villages and killing/displacing the occupants, then building new villages for armed Israeli's to live in.
Is it any wonder that when Hamas entered to political arena with an agenda to better people's lives and negotiate strongly with Israel for better conditions, that Hamas were elected ? Who wouldn't vote for that ?
What was missing from the Hamas Manifesto was a increased armed conflict with Israel.
Who votes for war ? against Israel, who gets it's arms from America and the West ?
You think perhaps Palestinians were lied to ? What , politicians lying to their electorate, to further their own interests ?
That would never happen anywhere, and certainly not in places like the UK 🙂

The creation of Israel, with no consideration for people already living in the land was a major fck-up by The West and America. The British did it with India, and after the British left the country fighting with itself, the conflicts were largely settled by the creation of Pakistan.

You'll never destroy Hamas, you'll only create Martyrs. A combination of negotiation and precision brute force probably will be required. Wiping out an entire population by indiscriminate military action is genocide.
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
What wasn't mentioned was the daily oppression that Palestinian citizens lived under. they were in fact second-class citizens in a society than practised apartheid. Last in to see the doctor, water supplies regularly interrupted, food shortages, power cuts when electricity was most needed, and barred access from some specific areas. Coupled with Israeli armed invaders regularly encroaching on Palestinian land, bulldozing villages and killing/displacing the occupants, then building new villages for armed Israeli's to live in.
Is it any wonder that when Hamas entered to political arena with an agenda to better people's lives and negotiate strongly with Israel for better conditions, that Hamas were elected ? Who wouldn't vote for that ?
What was missing from the Hamas Manifesto was a increased armed conflict with Israel.
Who votes for war ? against Israel, who gets it's arms from America and the West ?
You think perhaps Palestinians were lied to ? What , politicians lying to their electorate, to further their own interests ?
That would never happen anywhere, and certainly not in places like the UK 🙂

The creation of Israel, with no consideration for people already living in the land was a major fck-up by The West and America. The British did it with India, and after the British left the country fighting with itself, the conflicts were largely settled by the creation of Pakistan.

You'll never destroy Hamas, you'll only create Martyrs. A combination of negotiation and precision brute force probably will be required. Wiping out an entire population by indiscriminate military action is genocide.
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Israel is an abused child. It exists because of the holocaust. Netanyahu is the embodiment of this.
He is in effect passing on the pain of his people's history on to Palestine. In his mind, he is strengthening his own position by exacting vengeance on Gaza for the murder and kidnapping of Israelis, and he might even be hell bent of its total destruction.
How we judge him for this is one thing. What it means for our situation within the global framework is another.
In war, law and morals take a back seat to self interest. Britain must act in its own interests. I certainly don't trust Starmer to do that.
The expansion of Israel has winners and losers. I have no time for arguments in favour of Israel's formation or expansion, but it has happened and is happening. Those things that have been done cannot be undone. Having said that, Israel is our ally. They stand against dangerous enemies who do not abide by any international law and wish only death and destruction on the West. We now have a significant minority of people in this country who at least sympathise with our enemy and at worst support them. Some are even prepared to do violence to British citizens in their name. Our current government want to appease that group at the risk of showing weakness to those enemies.

Supporting Israel might be morally problematic, but the consequences of not doing so could be catastrophic.
This is the real world. History will not remember the losers because they did the right thing.
 
Forest Hillbilly said:
What wasn't mentioned was the daily oppression that Palestinian citizens lived under. they were in fact second-class citizens in a society than practised apartheid. Last in to see the doctor, water supplies regularly interrupted, food shortages, power cuts when electricity was most needed, and barred access from some specific areas.
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There's a lot to respond to, but I'll make a start. The so-called apartheid idea is an utter lie with no evidence. Israel is the only country in the Middle East with equal rights for all its minorities. Israeli Arabs have the same rights as Jews, use all the same public services, go to the same universities, are elected to parliament, serve as judges and fight in the Israeli military. None of this would have been possible in the apartheid South Africa.
 
Rudi Hedman said:
https://twitter.com/x/status/1831107881221161200
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'Thank you Douglas Murray for being the absolute most important voice in the world right now to defend Israel and the Jewish People!'

Even the thousands on the Israeli streets demonstrating against their governments actions?

Yeah, this guy is a right-wing mouthpiece, probably preaching to the converted. Ex- Eton, one of those privileged few who want to keep the status quo for him, his friends and those gullible enough to swallow his biased views.

He's doing a great job of defending genocidal acts. Well done.
 
Glazier#1 said:
'Thank you Douglas Murray for being the absolute most important voice in the world right now to defend Israel and the Jewish People!'

Even the thousands on the Israeli streets demonstrating against their governments actions?

Yeah, this guy is a right-wing mouthpiece, probably preaching to the converted. Ex- Eton, one of those privileged few who want to keep the status quo for him, his friends and those gullible enough to swallow his biased views.

He's doing a great job of defending genocidal acts. Well done.
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1. Keep the status quo for him and his friends for what exactly?
2. The war does not meet any of the criteria to be defined as "genocide".
 
Nicholas91 said:
Well, if you hate one side and are determined to paint them as the enemy you can justify just about any stance.
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Are you talking about me or Israel? If genocide is being committed, you have to justify it with factual evidence. This gives me a chance to respond. It's how discussion works. 🙂
 
Whatever way you look at it. Hamas are terrorists and must be stopped.

Long lasting peace will only be achieved once Hamas are gone.

Israel are surrounded by Muslim counties they must be strong and take a hardline approach on Hamas.
 
eaglesdare said:
Whatever way you look at it. Hamas are terrorists and must be stopped.

Long lasting peace will only be achieved once Hamas are gone.

Israel are surrounded by Muslim counties they must be strong and take a hardline approach on Hamas.
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It's not about "hating" Hamas and prejudice, or Israel if reversed. No one can sensibly argue Hamas has been good for Gaza. The people living in Gaza cannot dream of electing a leadership while Hamas exist.
 
georgenorman said:
Six hostages butchered by Islamic Terrorists - the Left of course couldn't care less or more or less celebrate it.
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Say the IDF.

Hamas says otherwise.

The IDF have form in wiping out dozens of non combatant collateral Palestinians to save a few of their own while killing a few of their own in the process.

For my part, no good evidence, no certainty, no position.
 
I've learnt from the Ukraine war and indeed before that, that the mainstream media can't be trusted to be objective in reporting on anything related to our perceived national interests.

Our intelligence and security services have their fingers in mainstream media advising and guiding how these events are reported and what the narrative is.

People like to simplify everything and thus the narrative presented is goodies and baddies and thus is what we are constantly fed....One sides crimes are highlighted while the other side's crimes are ignored or tacitly justified. It's lapped up even though most people understand that if they were born into this conflict as an Palestinian then they would probably see the conflict entirely differently for the precise same reason.

My understanding of the situation is that war is evil.....while individuals can be excellent people on both sides are willing to commit unspeakable suffering on the other.

We should not be involved....I can't stand David Lammy nor his traitorous boss but I actually agree with not selling weapons into a conflict. Not that it'll make any difference and is largely symbolic.
 
Stirlingsays said:
I've learnt from the Ukraine war and indeed before that, that the mainstream media can't be trusted to be objective in reporting on anything related to our perceived national interests.

Our intelligence and security services have their fingers in mainstream media advising and guiding how these events are reported and what the narrative is.

People like to simplify everything and thus the narrative presented is goodies and baddies and thus is what we are constantly fed....One sides crimes are highlighted while the other side's crimes are ignored or tacitly justified. It's lapped up even though most people understand that if they were born into this conflict as an Palestinian then they would probably see the conflict entirely differently for the precise same reason.

My understanding of the situation is that war is evil.....while individuals can be excellent people on both sides are willing to commit unspeakable suffering on the other.

We should not be involved....I can't stand David Lammy nor his traitorous boss but I actually agree with not selling weapons into a conflict. Not that it'll make any difference and is largely symbolic.
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Do you really think it's realistic not to get involved in global affairs Stirls?

The Americans tried that and ultimately changed their policy. The world has a way of finding its way to your door even if you stay at home. What would have happened if America had remained neutral in WW1?
 
silvertop said:
Say the IDF.

Hamas says otherwise.

The IDF have form in wiping out dozens of non combatant collateral Palestinians to save a few of their own while killing a few of their own in the process.

For my part, no good evidence, no certainty, no position.
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We can all have our opinions on the current state of affairs, but that cannot shape our strategic positioning.

Both involved parties take a position that requires the removal of the other. One side is an ally. The other isn't. One side exerts big political influence on the most powerful nation in the world.

When you wonder how terrible things happen in history, this is how.
 
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