Israel v Hamas

[cryrst]

Little value in hypotheticals. They have no bearing on what is happening right now. This is another propaganda talking point I've heard made many times.

But if you want I'll entertain it.

Hypothetically, in no particular order:
1. Don't commit genocide, apartheid and other war crimes.
2. End the occupations and illegal annexations and stop the blockades
3. Enter into sincere negotiations with neighbouring countries to agree a peaceful settlement and to ensure security assurances.
4. Long list of other stuff...

For 'balance' what should Israel have done/not done prior to Oct 7th to avoid or defend against the attack?

Should they have taken better heed of Egpyt's warnings and the clear and obvious training being undertaken by Hamas in the year leading up to the attack?

- Egypt warns Israel before OCt 7th (Times of Israel)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

- Hamas training in Gaza (The Wall Street Journal)

- Article as cited in the WSJ video

Gaza terror groups launch military exercise amid growing West Bank tensions

Gaza terror factions began a large-scale drill amid high tensions in the West Bank and unconfirmed reports that mediation efforts with Israel had failed.

www.jpost.com

And it all ends with hostage return and Hamas surrendering. Not really hard to understand but when you are an antisemite the truth hurts but never mind the uk will be a Muslim country soon and you can grow your beard and cover your woman. What’s not to like !!!

 

[Living In Hope]

If balance is important why stop at Oct 7th? Why not mention:

- The March of Return in 2018-2019: 2018–2019 Gaza border protests - Wikipedia

- Operation Proctective Edge in 2014: 2014 Gaza War - Wikipedia

- Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012: 2012 Gaza War - Wikipedia

- David Cameron's description of Gaza in 2010: David Cameron describes blockaded Gaza as a 'prison'

- Operation Cast Lead in 2008: Gaza War (2008–2009) - Wikipedia

- The 2007 blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt: Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

That's some of the more recent history.

How would you describe the 'balance' in the region? Should we approach the reality of the situation from a perspective of 'balance' in so far as both sides have done bad s*** to each other (they have) therefore are both as bad as each other and so all our arguments should be manufactured to present a 'balanced' view?

Or should we examine the evidence and let that speak for itself?

I'm in favour of letting the evidence speak for itself. To start, could you provide a summary of the body count and serious injuries on the Palestinian side and Israeli side in the period from 2007 (arbitrary date) to now. Please add as many more sources as you see necessary for balance going back as far as you like. I will gladly engage with more evidence if provided as I have done in this thread several times.

Your selective history says everything about the lack of balance in your perspective. I am sure that you don't see yourself as an ardent racist, but your obsessional loathing of Israel, as exemplified by your books of posts here, speaks volumes and is pretty shocking.

 

[Spiderman]

I can't find a single post where you denounce the Genocide. Hence there's no evidence of you being anti-genocide which is why I asked. Would you like to present your arguments on the subject now? As your contributions, aside from on Amsterdam, have been less than relevant.



Of course I disagree with you. The argument on the Israeli side was that these were anti-jew attacks, yet prior to the Macabi fans arrival, there were no reports of Jew hunts despite there being long established Jewish population in Amsterdam. So, you choose to believe in what media tells you, I look at what they say and apply critical thinking and analysis to figure out what the truth of the matter is.

As I've said before, if you have to believe, then you don't know and you need to do more work - i.e. not be lazy.



I've gone to lengths to provide rebuttals with evidence against the arguments that have been put in front of me. Give me one example where I've deemed an argument to be lazy and moronic without justification (and I will provide that justification).

If there is a argument which I have called lazy/moronic that you disagree with, the provide your rebuttal.

I suspect that you will find that I have consistently responded to the arguments laid in front of me. If those arguments are lazy and moronic, then I will call that out. The answer is to not make lazy and moronic arguments.

Of course, here you are insinuating that I am a lazy moron without any attempt to justify that opinion:



How many 'Jew Hunts' happened in Amsterdam before the Macabi fans arrived? Did the 'hunts' occur before or after the Macabi fans committed several acts of violence and vandalism about the city?

I have condemned the acts of the vigilantes which likely exacerbated the 'trouble'.



Well, simply saying 'anti-' something is a broad and lazy generalisation. To help you understand, we would need to agree on a specific definition of that term. Do you want to have a go?

To help, I would say it is perfectly reasonable to be against the actions of a regime that is representative of a country, while not being against that country being there. For example, I am against the actions of the Nazis, but not against the country. You would agree that it is common for people to refer to Nazi Germany and also to Germany (for brevity) in discussions about that time in history. Eg the war against Germany. Now that does not mean I am anti-German, but anti-German regime, anti-German regime actions etc. Does that seem reasonable to you?

In the case of Israel, I am anti- the Israeli regime and its actions of committing war crimes and genocide. I would prefer a 2 state solution and peace above all and no more murdering and maiming of children (and innocents) in the tens of thousands. Does that sound reasonable? I am anti-Tory and Labour governments for their support of Israeli regime atrocities, but I am not anti-my country... do you see?

As I tried to explain to you, my only contribution to this thread was regarding the incidents in Amsterdam, nothing more, nothing less. If you choose to continue to call me and others lazy, that, of course, is your perogative but that does say a lot about you and your character.

 

[Badadmcmad]

Your selective history says everything about the lack of balance in your perspective. I am sure that you don't see yourself as an ardent racist, but your obsessional loathing of Israel, as exemplified by your books of posts here, speaks volumes and is pretty shocking.

You were highly selective in only considering the 7th October, and I said quite explicitly that you should add any other event from any time to back up your assertions.

Instead you go for the ad hominem and complain about selective history despite that being an obvious hypocrisy.

So please make a useful contribution rather than lazily reverting to ad hominems and moronic hypocritical complaints about selective history...

 

[Badadmcmad]

And it all ends with hostage return and Hamas surrendering.

What do you mean by 'all'?

Do you think it's likely Hamas would surrender to a hostile foreign regime hell bent on their destruction?

Which single event in the last year of conflict lead to the most hostages being release?

Blah... blah... racist Islamaphobic bullshit... blah... blah...

 

[Badadmcmad]

As I tried to explain to you, my only contribution to this thread was regarding the incidents in Amsterdam, nothing more, nothing less. If you choose to continue to call me and others lazy, that, of course, is your perogative but that does say a lot about you and your character.

The simplest thing to do is not be lazy in your responses, that way I have no grounds to call you lazy and you know what? You won't get called lazy.

Likewise with moronic comments. I accept that we make inaccurate and stupid comments from time to time, but we should have the decency and humility to accept when those mistakes are made. If, however, you double down with the stupid remarks and show no evidence of critical thinking or analysis, that gets into moron territory.

Oh and I was skimming back over past comments and I'm struggling to find where I called you a lazy moron, can you point me to it?

 

[cryrst]

What do you mean by 'all'?

Do you think it's likely Hamas would surrender to a hostile foreign regime hell bent on their destruction?

Which single event in the last year of conflict lead to the most hostages being release?

Blah... blah... racist Islamaphobic bullshit... blah... blah...

So Hamas should not suffer total destruction?
You say enough with your own arrogance.
Paraphrasing.
“Some should stay silent and be presumed an idiot than open their mouth and prove it”

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I think Israel will now attempt to move borders into Sysria. With US backing and weaponry the time is right to repel any 'terrorists' from syria and install some kind of US backed puppet regime.

I am thinking the US wants a big new military base somewhere, not just using Israel as a proxy in the region. However, the new US President-in waiting prefers economic , rather than military measures to further US interests.

 

[Spiderman]

The simplest thing to do is not be lazy in your responses, that way I have no grounds to call you lazy and you know what? You won't get called lazy.

Likewise with moronic comments. I accept that we make inaccurate and stupid comments from time to time, but we should have the decency and humility to accept when those mistakes are made. If, however, you double down with the stupid remarks and show no evidence of critical thinking or analysis, that gets into moron territory.

Oh and I was skimming back over past comments and I'm struggling to find where I called you a lazy moron, can you point me to it?

Thanks dad. Did I say you called me lazy moron? Think I just said lazy. Even that is an interesting comment from someone who doesn’t know me. Still with the arrogance you possess nothing surprises me

 

[Penge Eagle]

Little value in hypotheticals. They have no bearing on what is happening right now. This is another propaganda talking point I've heard made many times.

But if you want I'll entertain it.

Hypothetically, in no particular order:
1. Don't commit genocide, apartheid and other war crimes.
2. End the occupations and illegal annexations and stop the blockades
3. Enter into sincere negotiations with neighbouring countries to agree a peaceful settlement and to ensure security assurances.
4. Long list of other stuff...

For 'balance' what should Israel have done/not done prior to Oct 7th to avoid or defend against the attack?

Should they have taken better heed of Egpyt's warnings and the clear and obvious training being undertaken by Hamas in the year leading up to the attack?

- Egypt warns Israel before OCt 7th (Times of Israel)

https://www.timesofisrael.com/egypt-intelligence-official-says-israel-ignored-repeated-warnings-of-something-big/

- Hamas training in Gaza (The Wall Street Journal)

- Article as cited in the WSJ video

Gaza terror groups launch military exercise amid growing West Bank tensions

Gaza terror factions began a large-scale drill amid high tensions in the West Bank and unconfirmed reports that mediation efforts with Israel had failed.

www.jpost.com

After the biggest massacre of Jews since the holocaust, you would have Israel not respond at all and cave in to the demand of terrorists! What planet are you on? You think Britain or any other country would do this if it happened to them?

 

[Penge Eagle]

When you believe, it's because you don't have knowledge. If you have knowledge, you don't need to believe.

I know Israel exists.

The question that I doubt has crossed your mind, and goes back to one of the first questions you ask me, is: what are 'rights'? As in the 'right to exist' or the 'right to freedom of expression'.

Nice politician's answer... Let me try again. Do you think Israel should ever have been created?

 

[Penge Eagle]

If balance is important why stop at Oct 7th? Why not mention:

- The March of Return in 2018-2019: 2018–2019 Gaza border protests - Wikipedia

- Operation Proctective Edge in 2014: 2014 Gaza War - Wikipedia

- Operation Pillar of Defense in 2012: 2012 Gaza War - Wikipedia

- David Cameron's description of Gaza in 2010: David Cameron describes blockaded Gaza as a 'prison'

- Operation Cast Lead in 2008: Gaza War (2008–2009) - Wikipedia

- The 2007 blockade of Gaza by Israel and Egypt: Blockade of the Gaza Strip - Wikipedia

That's some of the more recent history.

How would you describe the 'balance' in the region? Should we approach the reality of the situation from a perspective of 'balance' in so far as both sides have done bad s*** to each other (they have) therefore are both as bad as each other and so all our arguments should be manufactured to present a 'balanced' view?

Or should we examine the evidence and let that speak for itself?

I'm in favour of letting the evidence speak for itself. To start, could you provide a summary of the body count and serious injuries on the Palestinian side and Israeli side in the period from 2007 (arbitrary date) to now. Please add as many more sources as you see necessary for balance going back as far as you like. I will gladly engage with more evidence if provided as I have done in this thread several times.

A similar list can easily be created from the other side with Wiki citations of terror attacks, including suicide bombs.

However, what it comes down to: each of the five times Israel has agreed to a Palestinian state, the Palestinians rejected the offer (1937, 1947, 1967, 2000, 2008). In 2000 and 2008, the Palestinians were offered all of Gaza and 94% of the West Bank. They said NO! They want no Jew in the region as explicitly stated by Hamas. 'From the River to the Sea...'.

 

[Living In Hope]

You were highly selective in only considering the 7th October, and I said quite explicitly that you should add any other event from any time to back up your assertions.

Instead you go for the ad hominem and complain about selective history despite that being an obvious hypocrisy.

So please make a useful contribution rather than lazily reverting to ad hominems and moronic hypocritical complaints about selective history...

I fully appreciate that anyone who is not an Israel-hater like you is a moron. I apologise for my lack of intellectual prowess. I am a moron, and I bow down to your obsessive racist hatred.

 

[Badadmcmad]

Thanks dad. Did I say you called me lazy moron? Think I just said lazy. Even that is an interesting comment from someone who doesn’t know me. Still with the arrogance you possess nothing surprises me

Fair enough, where was it that I called you lazy?

Why do you complain when you've called me a lazy moron without justification?

In any case, my arrogance doesn't change any of the facts of the debate. Care to make a substantive argument why it is or is not genocide?

 

[Badadmcmad]

I think Israel will now attempt to move borders into Sysria. With US backing and weaponry the time is right to repel any 'terrorists' from syria and install some kind of US backed puppet regime.

I am thinking the US wants a big new military base somewhere, not just using Israel as a proxy in the region. However, the new US President-in waiting prefers economic , rather than military measures to further US interests.

There are a couple of arguments I've heard about the move into Syria. One is to block the land bridge from Iran to Lebanon to halt the supply of weapons to Hezbollah. Along with that it provides a means to invade Lebanon without going through the UN peacekeepers in Southern Lebanon as well as avoiding the unfavourable mountainous terrain.

From the colonial perspective, the swathes of Southern Syria are included in the regions of Greater Israel:

Greater Israel - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Netanyahu Pushes Forward with “Greater Israel” Plan Amid Syrian Turmoil

Photo: Times of Israel Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu appears to be moving forward with his plan for a “Greater Israel.” In a significant escalation, Israeli troops entered 2…

freevoiceofficial.com

Jordan objected to Smotrich's use of a depiction of Greater Israel when he spoke of Palestinians not existing: "There is no such thing as Palestinian. There is no such thing as a Palestinian people."

Israel's invasion of Syria has been concentrated with expanding occupied territory along the Lebanon-Syria border up from the illegally annexed regions of the Golan heights via the UN buffer zone, circumnavigating mount Hermon:

2024 Israeli invasion of Syria - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Badadmcmad]

A similar list can easily be created from the other side with Wiki citations of terror attacks, including suicide bombs.

However, what it comes down to: each of the five times Israel has agreed to a Palestinian state, the Palestinians rejected the offer (1937, 1947, 1967, 2000, 2008). In 2000 and 2008, the Palestinians were offered all of Gaza and 94% of the West Bank. They said NO! They want no Jew in the region as explicitly stated by Hamas. 'From the River to the Sea...'.

Yes there have been terror attacks, including suicide bombs during the occupation of Palestine. Innocent Israelis have been killed and that is as horrific as the innocent Palsetinians who have been killed in far larger numbers while being held in a 'prison' by Israel as described by David Cameron.

The obvious question is to ask why Palestine didn't accept those offers. What was objectionable? What were the criticisms of the deals - because reading a little about the 2008 deal, for example, there were several eyebrow raising conditions in that offer including the seeming lack of territorial integrity as one of the conditions was that the IDF would be free to incur across the Palestinian border under the pretence of 'defence' (an all to familiar excuse for invasion as per Syria today, for example) and Israel having access over Palestinian airspace and telecommunications... without, seemingly the same rights extended to the Palestinian state. I can understand why this 'offer' would be unacceptable.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/ehud-olmert-s-peace-offer

The 'balance' of the equation (which is what the list was in response to) is that the Israeli regime has killed and maimed far more Palestinians and maimed vastly more than that. That's just the narrow, but important lens of quantifying the situation. How else do we 'balance' the equation qualitatively or otherwise.

The long history of murdering changes little about the intent and actions happening today. It provides useful context to the conflict and for the mutual animosity, but doesn't change the fact of the Israeli regime is committing genocide (see the comments from Smotrich in a previous post, see the Amelek reference from Netenyahu etc).

 

[Badadmcmad]

I fully appreciate that anyone who is not an Israel-hater like you is a moron. I apologise for my lack of intellectual prowess. I am a moron, and I bow down to your obsessive racist hatred.

Where have I been racist? Please provide the quote and explanation.

 

[Spiderman]

Fair enough, where was it that I called you lazy?

Why do you complain when you've called me a lazy moron without justification?

In any case, my arrogance doesn't change any of the facts of the debate. Care to make a substantive argument why it is or is not genocide?

Nope. For the umpteenth time I only contributed regarding the incidents in Amsterdam, I have no desire to get into a debate about genocide, now if you take that as me being a supporter of it, that’s your problem.
By the way please point out where I have called you a lazy moron? I suspect the post you are referring to is when I wrote “ don’t do yourself down” now what you take from that is up to you but without substantive evidence not sure your accusation is correct and we all know how you insist on substantive evidence.
#279 in reply to my post “it is lazy not to provide references” before calling me the “ perfect case study” . Patronising as well as arrogant, well done!

 

[becky]

This thread is beginning to be more about who said which insult to whom.

Can you please stick to topic and discussion thereof.

Thank you!

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

i just want to re-visit the human aspect.
There seems to have been no effort whatsoever to seek the release of hostages, apart from threats to HAMAS.

Do we blame the media for lack of reporting ?

Some hostages were killed by friendly fire, others killed by kidnappers.

Around 45,000 Palestinian civilians have been killed. Many more injured. Many living in temporary shelters as winter arrives, with little food or medicine and degrading water and sanitary conditions.

Meanwhile the US-back military offensive continues into Syria, with Israel re-inventing new borders and claiming strategically important Syrian land in the Golan Heights as their own.

Very little news on the terrorist body count, apart from the occasional Commander killed.

The Arab States have been noticeably quiet on comment.

I don't think Benjamin Netanyahu quite saw it panning out this way. Syria being an 'opportunity', is probably going to complicate things in the long run and see many more deaths in the short term. Am really hoping Trump comes with fresh ideas and impetus, because this has the potential to drag a lot more countries in.