Israel v Hamas

[Badadmcmad]

According to you, "there is no explanation why or how the supposed movement of Jews from this territories occurred."

Let's take Iraq as one example... Jews had lived in Iraq for over 2,500 years and made up about 25 per cent of the population of Baghdad.

In 1941, anti-Jewish riots killed hundreds of Jews and in 1948 the Iraqi government took away their rights, stripped them of their citizenship and confiscated their property as part of anti-Jewish laws.

Around 120,000 Jews lost their homes, assets and had to be airlifted to the safety of Israel. That's what you call ethnic cleansing.

Correct, in that animation there was no such evidence presented.

You don't provide a citation for your Iraq example, so let's take it at face value. On the face of it, it would certainly appear to be that way.

So it's clear you know that forced displacement of 120,000 people is ethnic cleansing.

So it follows that you accept the Nakba of 1948 was also an ethnic cleansing as 750,000 Palestinians lost their homes.

And since Oct 7th 2023, 1.9m have been forcibly displaced: Population and internal displacement since 7 October 2023 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

Nakba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

P.S. It would appear you are referring to the Farhud of 1941? I've only read the wikipedia article as really it doesn't appear to be too strongly relevant to the current genocide. While there are contentions over your framing in the limited portrayal of events you provide, there was certainly violence against the Jews in the backdrop of WW2.

Historian Moshe Gat writes, "On his first visit to Baghdad, Enzo Sereni noted that '[...] The Jews have adapted to the new situation with the British occupation, which has again given them the possibility of free movement after months of detention and fear.' It is not surprising, in light of the economic boom and the security granted by the government, that Jews who left Iraq immediately after the riots, later returned [...] Their dream of integration into Iraqi society had been dealt a severe blow by the farhud but as the years passed self-confidence was restored, since the state continued to protect the Jewish community and they continued to prosper."

Farhud - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

P.P.S. Interesting note on Operation Ezra and Nehemiah in 1951:

"Most of the $4 million cost of the operation was financed by the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee."

It seems there is a combination of planned mass migration, which is consistent with the quoted aim of Truman (from the references I provided), which may well have been fuelled by events in previous years.

So, I need more information to really conclude if all those who migrated to Israel were 'ethnically cleansed' or were part of the planned mass migration as devised under the Truman administration.

Operation Ezra and Nehemiah - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Penge Eagle]

Correct, in that animation there was no such evidence presented.

You don't provide a citation for your Iraq example, so let's take it at face value. On the face of it, it would certainly appear to be that way.

So it's clear you know that forced displacement of 120,000 people is ethnic cleansing.

So it follows that you accept the Nakba of 1948 was also an ethnic cleansing as 750,000 Palestinians lost their homes.

And since Oct 7th 2023, 1.9m have been forcibly displaced: Population and internal displacement since 7 October 2023 | Gaza Strip | United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs - occupied Palestinian territory

Nakba - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Short video clips on TikTok don't tend to have citations but there are plenty of citations for the Iraq case and other countries in this extensive Wiki page.

Jewish exodus from the Muslim world - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

I'm glad you agree that Jews have been ethnically cleansed (we got there in the end!).

As for Nakba, yes there were voluntary and forced displacements. It's very nuanced but my view is that it was not a premeditated plan for ethnic cleansing by Zionists but a tragic outcome of the war in which there were definitely isolated incidents of Israeli atrocities.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I find today's media polarises opinion. And any internet discussion means people get entrenched in their opinions.

All that's happening , is vast amounts of innocents are dying for the sake of The Big Boys power games. And to say that one sides innocents are anymore deserving of a pitiful death, than another's, is to completely surrender your humanism to the political game.

Politics caused this, and politics can stop it. It ain't over until everyone is dead.

 

[Badadmcmad]

I'm glad you agree that Jews have been ethnically cleansed (we got there in the end!).

As for Nakba, yes there were voluntary and forced displacements. It's very nuanced but my view is that it was not a premeditated plan for ethnic cleansing by Zionists but a tragic outcome of the war in which there were definitely isolated incidents of Israeli atrocities.

Not by Palestinians... Ethnic cleansing of Jews in 1941 Iraq by an Iraqi regime sympathetic to Nazi Germany doesn't preclude ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel. The tik tok is lazy and moronic propaganda which you have espoused.

What happened in 1940's Iraq has little to do with the genocide currently happening in Palestine and the planned mass immigration of Jews to the newly formed/conquered lands of Israel means the movement of Jews in that time was not entirely down to ethnic cleansing. As pointed out, many Jews returned to their homes in Iraq - something denied to the Palestinians by the occupying Israeli regime.

It is disingenuous to make such a definitive assertion in the face of compelling evidence that the US policy of unlimited Jewish migration to Israel along with US lead efforts to move Jews from Arab countries to Israel.

It is extremely weak sauce to try to argue that the Zionist's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians at any point is 'not a premeditated plan'. From the Zionist influence on the UN to partition Palestine, to the Likud Party charter explicitly stating its intention for there to be only Israeli sovereignty from river to the sea, to the expanding occupation - the only way to create a new State full of settlers from around the world in land already occupied is by displacement and removal of the indigenous population and authority. This is exactly what the stated intent of the creation of Israel requires and has happened.

To claim the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Palestinians is an incidental or accidental result of a war started because of the desire to clear land occupied by Palestinians to make way for unlimited Jewish settlement is moronic. Now the ethnic cleansing of 1.9million is happening right in front of our noses. Move to safe zones, move to the Sinai these people are told, or be bombed and slaughtered if you don't.

Israel is intensifying its efforts today. Bombing makeshift healthcare centres treating the wounded and further, "deliberately inflicting conditions of life that will lead to the group's physical destruction" (one of the tenets of the genocide convention that you refuse to acknowledge).

It is now expanding its invasion into Syria and occupying more land (in addition to the illegally annexed Golan heights) which is consistent with the planned areas of 'greater Israel'.

This is not accident.

 

[Badadmcmad]

I find today's media polarises opinion. And any internet discussion means people get entrenched in their opinions.

All that's happening , is vast amounts of innocents are dying for the sake of The Big Boys power games. And to say that one sides innocents are anymore deserving of a pitiful death, than another's, is to completely surrender your humanism to the political game.

Politics caused this, and politics can stop it. It ain't over until everyone is dead.

Agreed. Too much power is held by too few in the media sphere. Murdoch, for instance, is strongly pro-Israel and has controlled a huge media empire. It is no real stretch to start to understand how certain propaganda is so widespread.

Take the Amsterdam football riot situation. The corruption of the truth by many parts of the mainstream media is now well documented.

The Zionist tactic of playing the victim in order to distract from the nefarious acts they do deliberately is so often used. Indeed, this was a point raised by the proposition in the Oxford Union debates and we see Penge use it with his tic tok propaganda which paints Jews as a victim of ethnic cleansing (true to an extent although not to the full extent implied by the video) and uses those events from other countries and years to claim that what has happened to Palestinians during the Nakba was not 'deliberately planned' ethnic cleansing (a qualification that is verbal gymnastics to try to say it was accidental, somehow!).

It's obvious, I even saw an interview with a former Israel politician who quite openly said it is the policy of the regime to use such tactics and accuse all detractors of anti-semitism.

The Zionist movement has also been smart in gaining positions of influence when it comes to editorship of media outlets. It was noted that one of the political editors of Sky News is a strong Zionist - this was when Sky editted their original and more accurate reporting of the Amsterdam violence to remove mention of the Macaabi fans rioting, stating instead that it was men in black...

 

[Penge Eagle]

Not by Palestinians... Ethnic cleansing of Jews in 1941 Iraq by an Iraqi regime sympathetic to Nazi Germany doesn't preclude ethnic cleansing of Palestinians by Israel. The tik tok is lazy and moronic propaganda which you have espoused.

What happened in 1940's Iraq has little to do with the genocide currently happening in Palestine and the planned mass immigration of Jews to the newly formed/conquered lands of Israel means the movement of Jews in that time was not entirely down to ethnic cleansing. As pointed out, many Jews returned to their homes in Iraq - something denied to the Palestinians by the occupying Israeli regime.

It is disingenuous to make such a definitive assertion in the face of compelling evidence that the US policy of unlimited Jewish migration to Israel along with US lead efforts to move Jews from Arab countries to Israel.

It is extremely weak sauce to try to argue that the Zionist's ethnic cleansing of Palestinians at any point is 'not a premeditated plan'. From the Zionist influence on the UN to partition Palestine, to the Likud Party charter explicitly stating its intention for there to be only Israeli sovereignty from river to the sea, to the expanding occupation - the only way to create a new State full of settlers from around the world in land already occupied is by displacement and removal of the indigenous population and authority. This is exactly what the stated intent of the creation of Israel requires and has happened.

To claim the ethnic cleansing of 700,000 Palestinians is an incidental or accidental result of a war started because of the desire to clear land occupied by Palestinians to make way for unlimited Jewish settlement is moronic. Now the ethnic cleansing of 1.9million is happening right in front of our noses. Move to safe zones, move to the Sinai these people are told, or be bombed and slaughtered if you don't.

Israel is intensifying its efforts today. Bombing makeshift healthcare centres treating the wounded and further, "deliberately inflicting conditions of life that will lead to the group's physical destruction" (one of the tenets of the genocide convention that you refuse to acknowledge).

It is now expanding its invasion into Syria and occupying more land (in addition to the illegally annexed Golan heights) which is consistent with the planned areas of 'greater Israel'.

This is not accident.

Ah so it's "lazy, moronic propaganda" when you don't want to believe it. What information is incorrect? I have stated the Iraq stats are spot on with the Wiki citations. It's pretty evident to anyone who is not an anti-Semite that the Jews and Christians have been ethnically cleansed from multiple Islamic countries. The facts are all laid out in history books and it's very surprising you have no knowledge of this.

As for Israel "occupying" a buffer zone in Syria, it makes perfect sense as a temporary measure to ensure no terrorists attempt to commit another October 7. Turkey are currently occupying far greater areas of Syria - but it's OK if they do it! When you hold Jews to a different standard to others, then by definition that makes you an anti-Semite. It's quite difficult to have a discussion with someone so blinded by bigotry of a particular people.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Agreed. Too much power is held by too few in the media sphere. Murdoch, for instance, is strongly pro-Israel and has controlled a huge media empire. It is no real stretch to start to understand how certain propaganda is so widespread.

Take the Amsterdam football riot situation. The corruption of the truth by many parts of the mainstream media is now well documented.

The Zionist tactic of playing the victim in order to distract from the nefarious acts they do deliberately is so often used. Indeed, this was a point raised by the proposition in the Oxford Union debates and we see Penge use it with his tic tok propaganda which paints Jews as a victim of ethnic cleansing (true to an extent although not to the full extent implied by the video) and uses those events from other countries and years to claim that what has happened to Palestinians during the Nakba was not 'deliberately planned' ethnic cleansing (a qualification that is verbal gymnastics to try to say it was accidental, somehow!).

It's obvious, I even saw an interview with a former Israel politician who quite openly said it is the policy of the regime to use such tactics and accuse all detractors of anti-semitism.

The Zionist movement has also been smart in gaining positions of influence when it comes to editorship of media outlets. It was noted that one of the political editors of Sky News is a strong Zionist - this was when Sky editted their original and more accurate reporting of the Amsterdam violence to remove mention of the Macaabi fans rioting, stating instead that it was men in black...

Ah, the "Jews control the media" trope! They also control the banks and Hollywood too?

Please point out the false information in the so called propaganda Tik Tok video.

 

[steeleye20]

Only one thing has prevented the United States and Israel from laying waste to the world but they have caused more carnage every day with their incessant and largely unsuccessful wars, life for them would be a paradise but a wilderness for everybody else.

Alll they actually achieve is return to first base, Israel is more surrounded and hated now than ever, America has lost it's authority and morality, 95% of the world does not agree with them. their currency is eroding and their imperialism rejected, Trump's economic war will only hurt them more.

It is the Russian nuclear capability and missile threat, currently superior, and never used, unlike the USA on the Japanese, that has kept the world safe.

One point is Trump's exit of the INF treaty in his last presidency, widely forecast to lead to an escalation of the arms race.

It has, but not to their benefit, the latest Russian missiles are superior to anything NATO and the USA has, temporarily anyway.

It was a complete shock to the USA when Stalin tested the bomb in 1949, ever since then there has been parity, the USA dream of destroying communism and anything else that got in their zionist way, was ended by the Manhatten spies.

Fuchs should have been celebrated, not sent to prison, his reasoning that the USA could not be trusted with the bomb, and that there had to be parity, is shown by the absence of nuclear war since then.

On Hollywood, 'Schindlers List' and 'Oppenheimer' are typical of the USA's distortion of actual events, entertainment and justification for their disney-hour public.

Notice how the victims of Hiroshima feature so little in 'Oppenheimer'?

They were the Palestinians of the day.

😎

 

[Badadmcmad]

Ah so it's "lazy, moronic propaganda" when you don't want to believe it. What information is incorrect? I have stated the Iraq stats are spot on with the Wiki citations. It's pretty evident to anyone who is not an anti-Semite that the Jews and Christians have been ethnically cleansed from multiple Islamic countries. The facts are all laid out in history books and it's very surprising you have no knowledge of this.

As for Israel "occupying" a buffer zone in Syria, it makes perfect sense as a temporary measure to ensure no terrorists attempt to commit another October 7. Turkey are currently occupying far greater areas of Syria - but it's OK if they do it! When you hold Jews to a different standard to others, then by definition that makes you an anti-Semite. It's quite difficult to have a discussion with someone so blinded by bigotry of a particular people.

The opening line of the tik tok is: "The Palestinians claim ethnic cleansing by Israel".

It then goes to irrelevantly talk about the reduction in numbers of Jews from various other countries. This has nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It is, as I said, the classic case of playing the victim.

It is whataboutery. Nor does it disprove the fact that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians which is well documented in terms of acts and clear, unequivocal statements from the Israel regime.

To avoid too much repetition, I refer you to my previous citations that you clearly have not understood but which strongly suggest the movement of Jews in 1950 was not solely ethnic cleansing but also as a result of the stated policy aims of the Truman administration and enormous $4m being spent by an American-Jewish organisation to act on the policy of unlimited immigration to Israel.

At 1min 13secs The map of Israel is wrong as it doesn't show Gaza and the West Bank (the whole area is green - I refer you to Netenyahu's picture of Israel he recently presented to the UN) where the population of 2m+ Palestinians live/lived.

Israel population has gone from 0 to 9.8 million since its creation to now. Arabs are 21% or so of todays number. Who cares? What has that got to do with Palestinians who don't live in Israel?

It's f***ing moronic, gibberish.

 

[Spiderman]

The opening line of the tik tok is: "The Palestinians claim ethnic cleansing by Israel".

It then goes to irrelevantly talk about the reduction in numbers of Jews from various other countries. This has nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It is, as I said, the classic case of playing the victim.

It is whataboutery. Nor does it disprove the fact that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians which is well documented in terms of acts and clear, unequivocal statements from the Israel regime.

To avoid too much repetition, I refer you to my previous citations that you clearly have not understood but which strongly suggest the movement of Jews in 1950 was not solely ethnic cleansing but also as a result of the stated policy aims of the Truman administration and enormous $4m being spent by an American-Jewish organisation to act on the policy of unlimited immigration to Israel.

At 1min 13secs The map of Israel is wrong as it doesn't show Gaza and the West Bank (the whole area is green - I refer you to Netenyahu's picture of Israel he recently presented to the UN) where the population of 2m+ Palestinians live/lived.

Israel population has gone from 0 to 9.8 million since its creation to now. Arabs are 21% or so of todays number. Who cares? What has that got to do with Palestinians who don't live in Israel?

It's f***ing moronic, gibberish.

Don’t do yourself down!

 

[ASCPFC]

Only one thing has prevented the United States and Israel from laying waste to the world but they have caused more carnage every day with their incessant and largely unsuccessful wars, life for them would be a paradise but a wilderness for everybody else.

Alll they actually achieve is return to first base, Israel is more surrounded and hated now than ever, America has lost it's authority and morality, 95% of the world does not agree with them. their currency is eroding and their imperialism rejected, Trump's economic war will only hurt them more.

It is the Russian nuclear capability and missile threat, currently superior, and never used, unlike the USA on the Japanese, that has kept the world safe.

One point is Trump's exit of the INF treaty in his last presidency, widely forecast to lead to an escalation of the arms race.

It has, but not to their benefit, the latest Russian missiles are superior to anything NATO and the USA has, temporarily anyway.

It was a complete shock to the USA when Stalin tested the bomb in 1949, ever since then there has been parity, the USA dream of destroying communism and anything else that got in their zionist way, was ended by the Manhatten spies.

Fuchs should have been celebrated, not sent to prison, his reasoning that the USA could not be trusted with the bomb, and that there had to be parity, is shown by the absence of nuclear war since then.

On Hollywood, 'Schindlers List' and 'Oppenheimer' are typical of the USA's distortion of actual events, entertainment and justification for their disney-hour public.

Notice how the victims of Hiroshima feature so little in 'Oppenheimer'?

They were the Palestinians of the day.

😎

The Japanese killed far more civilians around the world than were killed by that bomb. Perhaps all the civilians the Japanese killed were the Palestinians of the day?

 

[Penge Eagle]

The opening line of the tik tok is: "The Palestinians claim ethnic cleansing by Israel".

It then goes to irrelevantly talk about the reduction in numbers of Jews from various other countries. This has nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It is, as I said, the classic case of playing the victim.

It is whataboutery. Nor does it disprove the fact that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians which is well documented in terms of acts and clear, unequivocal statements from the Israel regime.

To avoid too much repetition, I refer you to my previous citations that you clearly have not understood but which strongly suggest the movement of Jews in 1950 was not solely ethnic cleansing but also as a result of the stated policy aims of the Truman administration and enormous $4m being spent by an American-Jewish organisation to act on the policy of unlimited immigration to Israel.

At 1min 13secs The map of Israel is wrong as it doesn't show Gaza and the West Bank (the whole area is green - I refer you to Netenyahu's picture of Israel he recently presented to the UN) where the population of 2m+ Palestinians live/lived.

Israel population has gone from 0 to 9.8 million since its creation to now. Arabs are 21% or so of todays number. Who cares? What has that got to do with Palestinians who don't live in Israel?

It's f***ing moronic, gibberish.

I find it astonishing the left apparently care so much about the plight of the Palestinians - yet silence about other Muslims getting displaced and killed all around the region. Marxists like yourself are so hellbent on your evil ideology that you only care about what the nasty Jews do. It's a shame radicals like you haven't learned anything from recent history.

 

[Penge Eagle]

The opening line of the tik tok is: "The Palestinians claim ethnic cleansing by Israel".

It then goes to irrelevantly talk about the reduction in numbers of Jews from various other countries. This has nothing to do with the ethnic cleansing Israel is doing to the Palestinians. It is, as I said, the classic case of playing the victim.

It is whataboutery. Nor does it disprove the fact that Israel is ethnically cleansing Gaza and the West Bank of Palestinians which is well documented in terms of acts and clear, unequivocal statements from the Israel regime.

To avoid too much repetition, I refer you to my previous citations that you clearly have not understood but which strongly suggest the movement of Jews in 1950 was not solely ethnic cleansing but also as a result of the stated policy aims of the Truman administration and enormous $4m being spent by an American-Jewish organisation to act on the policy of unlimited immigration to Israel.

At 1min 13secs The map of Israel is wrong as it doesn't show Gaza and the West Bank (the whole area is green - I refer you to Netenyahu's picture of Israel he recently presented to the UN) where the population of 2m+ Palestinians live/lived.

Israel population has gone from 0 to 9.8 million since its creation to now. Arabs are 21% or so of todays number. Who cares? What has that got to do with Palestinians who don't live in Israel?

It's f***ing moronic, gibberish.

If you don't believe in the state of Israel, then where should the Jews go?

 

[Stirlingsays]

The Japanese killed far more civilians around the world than were killed by that bomb. Perhaps all the civilians the Japanese killed were the Palestinians of the day?

The Japanese war machine was brutal beyond the kill or be killed expected way of the battlefield. I think the point you make about civilians is a valid one. They were evil and had seemingly no proportionality.

However, by what standards do we judge ourselves? Nietzsche, in the modern world is viewed as a right wing philosopher (though not in his time). Long after his death his ideas have influenced a lot of the fundamentals of right wing thought. He does directly address this question of how to respond to evil within his writings with the most well known quote being, 'he who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze long into an abyss, the abyss also gazes into you.'

I think it's a very difficult and nuanced question.....how far does someone take a response?....How much do we value innocence? For me, I can never justify taking it out of the battlefield.....In a sense this is the old Greek civilisational method of war, where at least some rules became expected.....war being almost a sport with an on and off season: Rome changed all that.

But Nietzsche in his theory of the Ubermensch, wants man to overcome himself. One does not overcome oneself by subscribing to petty limitations. Fight those monsters, sure, but become better than them.
In my view this isn't something that Truman can claim.

 

[cryrst]

Not sure if correct and may be just another article but more babies have been born in Gaza than people killed during this war. If Israel are committing genocide then they are not that good at it!

 

[Badadmcmad]

I find it astonishing the left apparently care so much about the plight of the Palestinians - yet silence about other Muslims getting displaced and killed all around the region. Marxists like yourself are so hellbent on your evil ideology that you only care about what the nasty Jews do. It's a shame radicals like you haven't learned anything from recent history.

The topic is Israel vs Hamas. You want to talk about Muslims elsewhere in the region do so in a separate topic.

Your floundering and desperate attempts to change tack and subject show you have no argument against the issues I highlighted with your propaganda and that rather than provide robust argument against or acceptance of the criticisms you turn to more whataboutery and irrelevance including baseless ad hominem by trying to label me a 'radical', 'marxist' with 'evil ideology'.

I hope that it is just a case of you having been brainwashed and that as soon as possible you can reflect on reality. My worry is that you lack the critical thinking skills and, worse, the integrity to recognise all the facts that reflect poorly on both sides and become a fair adjudicator.

The Israeli regime is intentionally committing genocide against the Palestinians under the pretence of attacking Hamas. The end game is well advertised - it's in your tik tok, it's in the Likud Party charter - it's to have Israeli sovereignty from river to the sea. That is only possible through the ethnic cleansing of the indigenous population of Palestinians which is in progress.

This situation is entirely consistent with Netenyahu's comments that the next war would be the last.

 

[Badadmcmad]

If you don't believe in the state of Israel, then where should the Jews go?

When you believe, it's because you don't have knowledge. If you have knowledge, you don't need to believe.

I know Israel exists.

The question that I doubt has crossed your mind, and goes back to one of the first questions you ask me, is: what are 'rights'? As in the 'right to exist' or the 'right to freedom of expression'.

 

[Badadmcmad]

Not sure if correct and may be just another article but more babies have been born in Gaza than people killed during this war. If Israel are committing genocide then they are not that good at it!

For clarity, are you saying that as long as the number of babies born in Gaza is greater than the number of people killed, it's not a genocide?

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

It's unclear how Cryrst's statistics could be composed. Babies born may include Israeli settlers babies, or indeed be products of militia rape. And Cryst does not provide comparative figures for current infant mortality either. Having little medication, food or access to hospitals, one might think infant mortality may be increased from pre-conflict levels. Particularly when you're having missiles bullets and bombs thrown at you.

 

[cryrst]

For clarity, are you saying that as long as the number of babies born in Gaza is greater than the number of people killed, it's not a genocide?

If you wish to copy and paste the definition from a dictionary then we can all see if it is actually genocide. You are good at that !