Reform

[georgenorman]

Do you not think the struggles around the implementation of Brexit could be linked to the fact that the Brexit campaign was only ever 'a clear, simple message of intent' without any detail as to what the reality looked like..?

Brexit happened - some years ago now. What our governments have done or not done in the meantime is separate from Brexit.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

No.
It was because Boris wanted to win an election by supporting Brexit, but was not keen to actually see it through.

I'm not sure what you think Brexit was about. For me, it was about severing ties with Brussels and having control over our own laws. The short term economic turbulence if there were to be any was an acceptable consequence.
As far as I can see, the downsides have been minimal. The biggest problems we face have been caused by government policy, not Brexit.

I disagree - I think the lack of detail on implementation is precisely why so many Brexiters have ended up disappointed with the reality.

I think your second paragraph lends itself to my argument; Brexit meant one thing for you, and another to everyone else, and so an implementation that a majority were happy with was always very unlikely.

That you view a party manifesto in the same terms is another recipe for disappointment, in my opinion.

But don't worry, Farage will be along with more snake oil once Reform fail to deliver.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I disagree - I think the lack of detail on implementation is precisely why so many Brexiters have ended up disappointed with the reality.

I think your second paragraph lends itself to my argument; Brexit meant one thing for you, and another to everyone else, and so an implementation that a majority were happy with was always very unlikely.

That you view a party manifesto in the same terms is another recipe for disappointment, in my opinion.

But don't worry, Farage will be along with more snake oil once Reform fail to deliver.

But Brexit was won by referendum, and we are now out of the EU.
That is what matters most.

If you and your like minds are going to persist in this ridiculous Reform are worse at pre election promises than Labour nonsense then it just shows how desperate you are.

This Labour government have been the most dishonest ever and the worst ever government at keeping promises and sticking to policy. Clueless doesn't cover it.

I won't even bother to include the Tories in the conversation. They have no hope.

Who will you be voting for?

 

[Stirlingsays]

I disagree - I think the lack of detail on implementation is precisely why so many Brexiters have ended up disappointed with the reality.

I think your second paragraph lends itself to my argument; Brexit meant one thing for you, and another to everyone else, and so an implementation that a majority were happy with was always very unlikely.

That you view a party manifesto in the same terms is another recipe for disappointment, in my opinion.

But don't worry, Farage will be along with more snake oil once Reform fail to deliver.

As opposed to?

Farage is the next cab off the rank and as deserving as any......The uniparty deserve to lose to Farage.

It's not as if putting Labour or Tory in is going to save the country.....They don't deserve to win.

At least Farage won't be putting the Lucy Connellys' of the world behind bars or bringing in tens of thousands of Afghans and lying about it.

Not being hated by your rulers means something.

 

[cryrst]

Conservatives have to expose Reform and Farage, it’s our job to hold them to account and subject them to the kind of scrutiny they have not experienced.

Apropos "Just going along as if nothing has happened" we are in the midst of a comprehensive 'Policy Renerwal Programme' the largest policy renewal for our party in 50 years.
We are developing a long-term plan forged from fundamental Conservative values to transform Britain for the better, backing the makers, not the takers.

The Problem Diagnosis phase is still running so we can identify the root cause of the problems our policies needs to solve.

Since the Programme began, we have launched a number of specific policy commissions.
Recently, we have launched a commission on the labour market with Europe Economics, and another, with the Adam Smith Institute, looking at the factors holding back private enterprise.
We have received thousands of submissions for our Policy Renewal Programme.
We are engaging in serious politics as opposed to Reform with their PR bluster and wheeling out policies hither and thither without any thought about how they can be delivered or indeed funded.

Being called far right by all and everyone isn’t really scrutiny!

 

[cryrst]

It is not beyond the realms of possibilities that come the election a deal will be struck between Conservatives and Reform but at this juncture, 4 years before an election, it is not a matter for discussion.
In actual fact Kemi Badenoch has explicitly ruled out any coalitions with Reform at national level but of course she might not lead the party into the election.I voted for Jenrick in the leadership contest.

I look forward to 'Conference' in Manchester 05-08 October.

If the tories had actually flown a few planes to Rwanda they would be in power.
That is the long and short of it !
One thing they needed to do they didn’t want to. Other countries are doing it in a capacity why not the UK.

 

[cryrst]

Do you not think the struggles around the implementation of Brexit could be linked to the fact that the Brexit campaign was only ever 'a clear, simple message of intent' without any detail as to what the reality looked like..?

No; without the belief it’s what a majority would vote for in reality so they didn’t plan for the result they got.
Cue wissie incoming about it was only a referendum blah blah !

 

[silvertop]

You are just spinning.

This is almost as dumb as when people were saying that Donald Trump and Boris Johnson were worse liars than other lying politicians.

Get a grip.

The more aggressive, personal and detached from the subject matter you get, the weaker your arguments appear.

You are now just arguing with yourself, trying to convince yourself that - please please please - may the shower that is Reform not be the train wreck they are steaming towards.

While your internal discourse continues, I will step aside.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

The more aggressive, personal and detached from the subject matter you get, the weaker your arguments appear.

You are now just arguing with yourself, trying to convince yourself that - please please please - may the shower that is Reform not be the train wreck they are steaming towards.

While your internal discourse continues, I will step aside.

Waffle is all you have.

No answers and no alternatives. Just one eyed waffle.

 

[georgenorman]

The more aggressive, personal and detached from the subject matter you get, the weaker your arguments appear.

You are now just arguing with yourself, trying to convince yourself that - please please please - may the shower that is Reform not be the train wreck they are steaming towards.

While your internal discourse continues, I will step aside.

The hubris of the Left personified.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

The hubris of the Left personified.

He talks crap and then plays the victim.

Standard behaviour.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

As opposed to?

Farage is the next cab off the rank and as deserving as any......The uniparty deserve to lose to Farage.

It's not as if putting Labour or Tory in is going to save the country.....They don't deserve to win.

At least Farage won't be putting the Lucy Connellys' of the world behind bars or bringing in tens of thousands of Afghans and lying about it.

Not being hated by your rulers means something.

It's not difficult to grasp.

Maybe they are praying for a miracle, or perhaps they like the current trajectory.

 

[silvertop]

I disagree - I think the lack of detail on implementation is precisely why so many Brexiters have ended up disappointed with the reality.

I think your second paragraph lends itself to my argument; Brexit meant one thing for you, and another to everyone else, and so an implementation that a majority were happy with was always very unlikely.

That you view a party manifesto in the same terms is another recipe for disappointment, in my opinion.

But don't worry, Farage will be along with more snake oil once Reform fail to deliver.

You are wasting your (keyboard?) breath.

Two thirds of Brexiteers would still vote Leave again.

And that is most who post on this site.

I don't disagree with all their points. The mission creep from free trade was not for everyone. I don't agree, but can see both sides.

And we Remainers wont forget that a sizeable chunk (who are now revisionist on the reasons they actually applied when penciling that cross) voted leave because of Tory austerity, because of the pledge that all that money will go to the NHS, because we paid a sub (like yo pay for membership of any club worth belonging to) and, my personal favourite, to check NON-EU migration into the UK. Funny how the latter has actually been made considerably worse by leaving the EU.

However, its failure is in the pocket; in the living standards of the average Brit; and in the laughing stock we have become. On this, the arguments on economic decline are unarguable. But our friends on here will argue the point anyway.

Look at the rest of Europe. OK, but we are still in relative decline compared to them.

It was not Brexit per se, it was the implementation of Brexit. Just no. It was doomed from inception for the very reasons explained before the vote. Unfortunately those reasons were complex and, thus, difficult. However, the two (TWO) words "project fear" were easily absorbed and smoothed over all those complexities.

We were betrayed. Err, what?

It was stymied by the "elites". Oh dear.

 

[georgenorman]

You are wasting your (keyboard?) breath.

Two thirds of Brexiteers would still vote Leave again.

And that is most who post on this site.

I don't disagree with all their points. The mission creep from free trade was not for everyone. I don't agree, but can see both sides.

And we Remainers wont forget that a sizeable chunk (who are now revisionist on the reasons they actually applied when penciling that cross) voted leave because of Tory austerity, because of the pledge that all that money will go to the NHS, because we paid a sub (like yo pay for membership of any club worth belonging to) and, my personal favourite, to check NON-EU migration into the UK. Funny how the latter has actually been made considerably worse by leaving the EU.

However, its failure is in the pocket; in the living standards of the average Brit; and in the laughing stock we have become. On this, the arguments on economic decline are unarguable. But our friends on here will argue the point anyway.

Look at the rest of Europe. OK, but we are still in relative decline compared to them.

It was not Brexit per se, it was the implementation of Brexit. Just no. It was doomed from inception for the very reasons explained before the vote. Unfortunately those reasons were complex and, thus, difficult. However, the two (TWO) words "project fear" were easily absorbed and smoothed over all those complexities.

We were betrayed. Err, what?

It was stymied by the "elites". Oh dear.

I canvassed for Leave during the referendum period and the main reason given by most people for wanting to leave was sovereignty, they wanted to be able to elect the people that governed them.

 

[Stirlingsays]

The remain arguments have been answered so many times now it's literally like a never ending round-about.

Remainers and the 'line go up' crowd with never accept the arguments against the EU because it's their identity and as vote leave has their own identity most arguments are like communicating in a different language.

The priority list for each crowd is different and not resolvable...like a pro and anti abortion argument.....But the point is that Brexit was an argument that was finished nine years ago.

Oh and yes, the betrayal does matter and the state of the economic EU does matter....All the criticisms of the EU remain......It won't change until it falls as the gravy train never does willingly.

 

[steeleye20]

Brexit has tripled immigration, but the brexit generation cannot face the truth, now it has cost in excess of 200 billions the economy is not going to recover.

The decline and fall of Great Britain, symbolized by brexit.

From the graffiti to the economy, a sense of terminal rot has set in, compounded by incompetence and authoritarianism.

And 'Perfidious Albion' supports genocide in Gaza and betrays Aghans who fought beside us, cutting aid to the desperate and at home rewarding wealthy property owners and bankers at the cost of the poor and working people just getting along.

If I feel for a desperate people the police may come knocking at my door.

The state will bail me providing I do not say the word 'Palestine'. (true).

😎

 

[georgenorman]

Brexit has tripled immigration, but the brexit generation cannot face the truth, now it has cost in excess of 200 billions the economy is not going to recover.

The decline and fall of Great Britain, symbolized by brexit.

From the graffiti to the economy, a sense of terminal rot has set in, compounded by incompetence and authoritarianism.

And 'Perfidious Albion' supports genocide in Gaza and betrays Aghans who fought beside us, cutting aid to the desperate and at home rewarding wealthy property owners and bankers at the cost of the poor and working people just getting along.

If I feel for a desperate people the police may come knocking at my door.

The state will bail me providing I do not say the word 'Palestine'. (true).

😎

Brexit has of course not tripled immigration. It would be even higher if we were still in the EU with Free Movement of People.
Brexit has not cost 200 billion, reckless government spending, particularly in regard to Covid has damaged the economy. Billions have been saved that would have gone to the EU if we were still part of it.
Brexit has not caused the decline of Great Britain.
I would certainly agree with the incompetence and authoritarianism.
We are not supporting genocide anywhere or betraying anyone.
The Welfare State continues to suffer from widespread fraud and abuse.
No property owners or bankers are being rewarded at the expense of anyone.
If you break the law, the police may coming knocking on your door, but they do tend to give crypto-communist trouble makers the benefit of the doubt.
Everyone is free to say the word 'Palestine'.

 

[Rudi Hedman]

Brexit has probably caused more third world African and Middle Eastern migration into Britain but the EU itself is to blame for that kind of migration being encouraged by Merkel et al and continuing.

I would prefer European freedom of movement over third world migration and the islamification of our country. But that would be less EU migration and some kind of regulation. Remember 10 East Europeans in a 3 bedroom house undercutting everyone with the nation divided over that’s not fair/driving down wages to a level that isn’t liveable versus brits are too lazy/not as hard working. People in this country are being sh@t on, and that is one reason why the uniparty are losing followers to Reform.

 

[Stirlingsays]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1947366059415122217

 

[georgenorman]

Brexit has probably caused more third world African and Middle Eastern migration into Britain but the EU itself is to blame for that kind of migration being encouraged by Merkel et al and continuing.

I would prefer European freedom of movement over third world migration and the islamification of our country. But that would be less EU migration and some kind of regulation. Remember 10 East Europeans in a 3 bedroom house undercutting everyone with the nation divided over that’s not fair/driving down wages to a level that isn’t liveable versus brits are too lazy/not as hard working. People in this country are being sh@t on, and that is one reason why the uniparty are losing followers to Reform.

It’s pure speculation to say that Brexit has probably caused more third world immigration.