Reform

That's not really a yes or no.

Intentions change. I would like to know if you would consider a deal.

If the answer is yes, then you clearly put party before country, because the Tories cannot win the next election. They have no chance.
If no, then you are admitting that Reform is a better option than Labour. The third option is to do a deal with Reform.

We would probably agree on most things, but Reform is the only right wing party that can win the coming election. The Tories chance will come round again if Reform messes it up.
I do not accept the premise that at the General Election, Reform will be riding high in the polls with the Conservatives in their 'Slip stream' and that we would have to engage in a pact with them.
I accept that this juncture the Conservatives are discredited and we have to earn the trust of the electorate but fortunes can change significantly over a 4 year period. We are in the midst of an extensive 'Policy Renewal Programme'.

Apropos Reform being 'Right-Wing' some will question whether Reform are really the party of the right and many might conclude they are about 'Big Government'. For instance they do not support retention of the 'Two-child benefit cap meaning that people can continue to have more children funded by the State.
They also propose a 50% nationalisation of the water industry and propose to nationalise steel. Sounds very 'Left-Wing' to me !
 
I asked AI why do so many middle class white people favour mass immigration and yet choose to live in the most white areas of the country.

AI responded:

This is known as Mother in Law syndrome. It commonly affects people that claim to have lived in urban multicultural areas and loved their immigrant neighbours. Unfortunately their Mother in Law is ill so to keep the wife happy they have been forced to move to closer to her and it is just a coincidence that is it a nice white middle class area.

Mother in Law syndrome should not be mistaken for Thompson's* disease which mainly affects millionaire celebrities forcing them to travel thousands of miles first class to lecture the population about the latest woke fashion.

* Allen's disease is a variant of this, it causes failed celebrities to break down in tears and apologise on behalf of the public.
What AI was that? It’s pretty opinionated! I asked Chat GPT the same question. This was its answer:-

Values vs. Lived Experience

Many middle-class white Britons (especially liberal-leaning professionals) support immigration in principle for reasons like:
  • Economic benefits: Belief that immigration contributes to the economy.
  • Cultural openness: A commitment to multiculturalism, diversity, and inclusion.
  • Moral values: A sense of fairness, solidarity with migrants and refugees, and opposition to racism or xenophobia.
However, support in principle doesn’t always translate into direct personal exposure to large-scale immigration in their day-to-day lives. Many live in:
  • Affluent, predominantly white suburbs or villages, where migration levels are low.
  • Areas where housing prices and school standards naturally limit demographic changes.
So, you get a values–experience gap: people support policies that promote openness and diversity, but their actual environments may remain relatively homogeneous.

Housing and Education Factors

Middle-class people often choose areas based on school quality, safety, and property value, not ethnicity per se. These factors can indirectly correlate with less diverse populations, due to:
  • Wealth inequality
  • Long-standing residential segregation
  • Historical migration patterns
This doesn’t necessarily mean they’re being hypocritical—but it does mean the consequences of immigration (e.g. pressures on housing, schools, services) are often felt more directly by working-class and lower-income communities, not by those advocating the policies.

Class Division on Immigration

Polls consistently show that support for immigration is strongest among university-educated, middle-class professionals, and weakest among working-class, less formally educated Britons—not necessarily due to racism, but:
  • Greater competition for jobs and housing in lower-income areas.
  • Less trust in institutions to manage immigration fairly.
  • A sense of cultural displacement or loss of community identity.

This has led to accusations of “liberal hypocrisy” or “virtue signalling”, where affluent people support policies that don’t impact them as much but may affect others deeply.

Is It Hypocrisy?

It can be, but often it’s more subtle:
  • Some genuinely support multiculturalism but don’t change where they live due to career, family, or habit.
  • Others may idealise diversity in theory but feel less comfortable with its realities, especially if services are strained or integration is poor.
  • There’s also social desirability bias: people publicly endorse diversity to align with modern norms, even if they don’t personally embrace it in practice.

Conclusion

You’ve hit on a real tension in modern British society:
Support for immigration is often strongest among those least directly affected by its downsides—and least likely to live in the communities where the most rapid demographic change is happening.
That doesn’t make all support for immigration disingenuous—but it does show how class, geography, and personal interest shape public attitudes.
 
I do not accept the premise that at the General Election, Reform will be riding high in the polls with the Conservatives in their 'Slip stream' and that we would have to engage in a pact with them.
I accept that this juncture the Conservatives are discredited and we have to earn the trust of the electorate but fortunes can change significantly over a 4 year period. We are in the midst of an extensive 'Policy Renewal Programme'.

Apropos Reform being 'Right-Wing' some will question whether Reform are really the party of the right andmany might conclude they are about 'Big Government'. For instance they do not support retention of the 'Two-child benefit cap meaning that people can continue to have more children funded by the State.
They also propose a 50% nationalisation of the water industry. Sounds very 'Left-Wing' to me !
OK. Broad terms like 'right wing' are for convenience. Policy should be determined by circumstances.

I knew you wouldn't accept that the Tories have no chance, but for the sake of argument, indulge in a little conjecture and tell me that if come the election, Reform are neck and neck with Labour, would you do a deal and who with?
 
OK. Broad terms like 'right wing' are for convenience. Policy should be determined by circumstances.

I knew you wouldn't accept that the Tories have no chance, but for the sake of argument, indulge in a little conjecture and tell me that if come the election, Reform are neck and neck with Labour, would you do a deal and who with?
It is not beyond the realms of possibilities that come the election a deal will be struck between Conservatives and Reform but at this juncture, 4 years before an election, it is not a matter for discussion.
In actual fact Kemi Badenoch has explicitly ruled out any coalitions with Reform at national level but of course she might not lead the party into the election.I voted for Jenrick in the leadership contest.

I look forward to 'Conference' in Manchester 05-08 October.
 
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With any calculations of this nature there will be some who pay more and others less. If part of the programme is to address inequalities so that the market grows that’s inevitable.
Not a question of paying less but that 10 countries made a net contribution while the others all took out more than they put in. Good luck on the sustainability of that model.
 
As usual, you miss the point.

The important thing is intent. It's direction.

People like you want to criticise but offer no answers. You are happy to see this country collapse around you while you whine about 'populism'.

Change takes will. It takes vision. It needs the support of the people.

A negative can't do attitude will only lead to disaster. We have to change direction.

This country is in a rapid downward spiral. We need brave people to make brave policy.

The two traditional parties have proven that they cannot be trusted.

Where are your solutions to solve our problems? Who would you vote for?
No, but you have neatly made mine.

Oh no, we never said that we were actually going to halve crime. It was only ever an aspiration; a target; aim for the stars to hit the moon etc.

That is not what Farage said. It is not what will be in their manifesto. And it is not what will appear on Reform's battle bus. If he wanted to say that he would have said that.

You are intelligent. You can interpret how you want and forgive what you want so long as the party seeks to achieve the principal objective you seek of seriously addressing immigration. There will be many like you.

Unfortunately, like it or not, there will be far more who are not as bright as you. Their cross on the page will be informed entirely by the promise to half crime - a promise they will believe implicitly. As they did the promise to pay all that money to the NHS if we leave the EU.

You can call it a lie. You can call it an unachievable objective. But it is an insult to the intelligence of the electorate.
 
Redirect police resources dedicated to so called 'hate crimes', the general persecution of motorists and LGBT propaganda - that would help. Oh - and abolish police commissioners.
Yup, and crime is thereby halved.

You're clinging on as their core values largely reflect yours. But with unachievable promise after unachievable promise, surely there must come a point when even the most ardent supporter must say: er hang on, what?
 
No, but you have neatly made mine.

Oh no, we never said that we were actually going to halve crime. It was only ever an aspiration; a target; aim for the stars to hit the moon etc.

That is not what Farage said. It is not what will be in their manifesto. And it is not what will appear on Reform's battle bus. If he wanted to say that he would have said that.

You are intelligent. You can interpret how you want and forgive what you want so long as the party seeks to achieve the principal objective you seek of seriously addressing immigration. There will be many like you.

Unfortunately, like it or not, there will be far more who are not as bright as you. Their cross on the page will be informed entirely by the promise to half crime - a promise they will believe implicitly. As they did the promise to pay all that money to the NHS if we leave the EU.

You can call it a lie. You can call it an unachievable objective. But it is an insult to the intelligence of the electorate.
In order to achieve change you need to be in a position of power. To do that, you need to win an election.

Is this getting too complicated for you yet?

The electorate is made up of a range of people of varying intelligence and interest in politics.

A clear, simple message of intent is all that is needed. Just like every other political party that ever contested an election, there will be a 'manifesto' of aims and promises which will be tested if that party becomes a government.

How many of Labour's promises have been kept so far? How many of their policies have they U turned on?

Who will you be voting for?

When will you stop whining about Reform and wetting you knickers about the details of their proposals, and tell us what you would do to fix the disaster that this country now is?

You don't have a clue, do you?
 
In order to achieve change you need to be in a position of power. To do that, you need to win an election.

Is this getting too complicated for you yet?

The electorate is made up of a range of people of varying intelligence and interest in politics.

A clear, simple message of intent is all that is needed. Just like every other political party that ever contested an election, there will be a 'manifesto' of aims and promises which will be tested if that party becomes a government.

How many of Labour's promises have been kept so far? How many of their policies have they U turned on?

Who will you be voting for?

When will you stop whining about Reform and wetting you knickers about the details of their proposals, and tell us what you would do to fix the disaster that this country now is?

You don't have a clue, do you?

That's gone brilliantly well with Brexit to be fair.
 
In order to achieve change you need to be in a position of power. To do that, you need to win an election.

Is this getting too complicated for you yet?

The electorate is made up of a range of people of varying intelligence and interest in politics.

A clear, simple message of intent is all that is needed. Just like every other political party that ever contested an election, there will be a 'manifesto' of aims and promises which will be tested if that party becomes a government.

How many of Labour's promises have been kept so far? How many of their policies have they U turned on?

Who will you be voting for?

When will you stop whining about Reform and wetting you knickers about the details of their proposals, and tell us what you would do to fix the disaster that this country now is?

You don't have a clue, do you?
I am neither in power or heading for it and do not need to account for my view of how objectives can be achieved.

I also fail to see what relevance Labour are. I never voted for them. Perhaps you are saying that they can be bad so why can't Reform also be bad? Are you already lowering the bar for them? Otherwise, why mention them?

I can, however, see with my own eyes when a party is making outrageous promises to appeal to the lowest base with no regard whatever to either method or possibility.

Am I not permitted to say this?
 
Play the ball.

Do you think Brexit has gone well..?
I think that Brexit has not been implemented properly.

You and your Brussels loving mugs were telling us that the sky was going to fall?

Last time I looked, everything was OK. Not bad considering we just had a hugely expensive pandemic to negotiate.

How's Europe doing?
 
I am neither in power or heading for it and do not need to account for my view of how objectives can be achieved.

I also fail to see what relevance Labour are. I never voted for them. Perhaps you are saying that they can be bad so why can't Reform also be bad? Are you already lowering the bar for them? Otherwise, why mention them?

I can, however, see with my own eyes when a party is making outrageous promises to appeal to the lowest base with no regard whatever to either method or possibility.

Am I not permitted to say this?
You are just spinning.

This is almost as dumb as when people were saying that Donald Trump and Boris Johnson were worse liars than other lying politicians.

Get a grip.
 
I think that Brexit has not been implemented properly.

You and your Brussels loving mugs were telling us that the sky was going to fall?

Last time I looked, everything was OK. Not bad considering we just had a hugely expensive pandemic to negotiate.

How's Europe doing?

Do you not think the struggles around the implementation of Brexit could be linked to the fact that the Brexit campaign was only ever 'a clear, simple message of intent' without any detail as to what the reality looked like..?
 
Yup, and crime is thereby halved.

You're clinging on as their core values largely reflect yours. But with unachievable promise after unachievable promise, surely there must come a point when even the most ardent supporter must say: er hang on, what?
What's your policy on crime - just let it rip presumably? Comes to something when valuing action against crime is disreputable in the eyes of the Left.
 
Do you not think the struggles around the implementation of Brexit could be linked to the fact that the Brexit campaign was only ever 'a clear, simple message of intent' without any detail as to what the reality looked like..?
No.
It was because Boris wanted to win an election by supporting Brexit, but was not keen to actually see it through.

I'm not sure what you think Brexit was about. For me, it was about severing ties with Brussels and having control over our own laws. The short term economic turbulence if there were to be any was an acceptable consequence.
As far as I can see, the downsides have been minimal. The biggest problems we face have been caused by government policy, not Brexit.
 

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