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Israel v Hamas

CPFCSaturn said:
There are plenty calling people 'Jew-haters' and running off as well - I think that's more abhorrent than sharing a link from the BBC, personally.

To be clear, my question is not about being comfortable from a moral standpoint - I mean based on the evidence we have, what do you think is a reasonable/logical estimate as to the death toll? I think based on some of what we know (examples in my post above), it's very difficult to make a serious case that we're not talking about tens of thousands dead.

And therefore my overarching point being that I find grandstanding over the 50,000 number to be semantical and largely irrelevant - I don't think there's any credible argument to suggest the death toll is drastically lower than this. Certainly the IDF's numbers are not close to credible.

I'm quick to point out that the military superpower who are directly responsible for the bombing and the withholding of aid from civilians are accountable for the deaths, yes.

We're also back to expecting more morality from the terrorist organisation than the military superpower purporting to respect international law. Funny enough, I expect considerably more morality from the military superpower than I do terrorists.

If we're on the topic of shifting blame onto the target of attacks, we could also get into how Israel could have better 'protected their people' on October 7th, but I don't think blaming the people being attacked is very appropriate.
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If you're that bothered about a number, then halfway between what both sides estimate is probably a likely figure. I think But of course nobody knows for sure.

Yes, October 7 was a serious security failure. But at least you admit it happened?

Only 1 in 4 British Muslims believe Hamas committed rape and murder on October 7. That's pretty shocking.
 
Penge Eagle said:
If you're that bothered about a number, then halfway between what both sides estimate is probably a likely figure. I think But of course nobody knows for sure.

Yes, October 7 was a serious security failure. But at least you admit it happened?

Only 1 in 4 British Muslims believe Hamas committed rape and murder on October 7. That's pretty shocking.
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Obviously it happened, yes.

A shocking headline, certainly, but a poll with 1000 participants from a population of 4 million is not proof of much. I'm also not sure why it matters in relation to my criticism of Israel.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Many sources think the bombing in Gaza has surpassed that in WW2 - Robert Pape, who is a US academic specialising in bombing air power, has stated that the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza exceeds 70,000 tonnes, which is more than the combined bomb tonnage of Dresden, Hamburg and London.

Information like that, combined with the satellite images of Gaza showing the sheer scale of the destruction... I struggle to see how it's anything but tens of thousands dead, at least.
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Well he's a c*** then for saying it. It only shows either a lack of understanding of weapons, or that there's a narrative to attack the IDF. "Tonnage".......this is incredibly misleading having cherrypicked locations and the progress in weapons platforms able to deliver. An F-15E fighter can carry more weight of bombs than a late war Lancaster bomber for a start, and they aren't on an 8 hour round trip night flight where only 25% of the bombs dropped even land within a mile of the target. Dresden was set on fire with incendiaries which suffocated the population, a low tonnage but massive casualty rate, Hamburg was an industrial target and actually hit pretty heavily, and Germany never had ANY heavy bombers so London was actually barely scratched. A USAAF P-47 single engine fighter could carry about the same ordnance load as a Dornier 17 bomber.

The bloke is a prick for opening his mouth with such a ludicrous analogy.
 
Spindle said:
Well he's a c*** then for saying it. It only shows either a lack of understanding of weapons, or that there's a narrative to attack the IDF. "Tonnage".......this is incredibly misleading having cherrypicked locations and the progress in weapons platforms able to deliver. An F-15E fighter can carry more weight of bombs than a late war Lancaster bomber for a start, and they aren't on an 8 hour round trip night flight where only 25% of the bombs dropped even land within a mile of the target. Dresden was set on fire with incendiaries which suffocated the population, a low tonnage but massive casualty rate, Hamburg was an industrial target and actually hit pretty heavily, and Germany never had ANY heavy bombers so London was actually barely scratched. A USAAF P-47 single engine fighter could carry about the same ordnance load as a Dornier 17 bomber.

The bloke is a prick for opening his mouth with such a ludicrous analogy.
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I was going to post something similar but less detailed, the Pape extrapolation comparison is meaningless but he has books to sell
 
Spindle said:
Well he's a c*** then for saying it. It only shows either a lack of understanding of weapons, or that there's a narrative to attack the IDF. "Tonnage".......this is incredibly misleading having cherrypicked locations and the progress in weapons platforms able to deliver. An F-15E fighter can carry more weight of bombs than a late war Lancaster bomber for a start, and they aren't on an 8 hour round trip night flight where only 25% of the bombs dropped even land within a mile of the target. Dresden was set on fire with incendiaries which suffocated the population, a low tonnage but massive casualty rate, Hamburg was an industrial target and actually hit pretty heavily, and Germany never had ANY heavy bombers so London was actually barely scratched. A USAAF P-47 single engine fighter could carry about the same ordnance load as a Dornier 17 bomber.

The bloke is a prick for opening his mouth with such a ludicrous analogy.
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I tend to agree with this. I reckon they were just trying to get figures that suited a particular narrative.
In some WW2 raids, there were so many bodies that it took days to move them. Mountains of bodies, unfortunately.
I didn't really want to talk about it, as it's actually people we are talking about, but if there are multiple tens of thousands dead it's like a large football stadium crowd - which I just find doubtful from what I've seen. Although I don't particularly follow it closely.

However, as discussed previously, there are reasons that likely no one will ever know precisely or even approximately.

For my opinion:
I would think maybe the figures currently given could be closer to the figures for overall casualties - with wounded making up over half of the number, possibly 60-70%. Some people with severe injuries, some not so. It's just from seeing previous data on war casualties.
 
ASCPFC said:
I tend to agree with this. I reckon they were just trying to get figures that suited a particular narrative.
In some WW2 raids, there were so many bodies that it took days to move them. Mountains of bodies, unfortunately.
I didn't really want to talk about it, as it's actually people we are talking about, but if there are multiple tens of thousands dead it's like a large football stadium crowd - which I just find doubtful from what I've seen. Although I don't particularly follow it closely.

However, as discussed previously, there are reasons that likely no one will ever know precisely or even approximately.

For my opinion:
I would think maybe the figures currently given could be closer to the figures for overall casualties - with wounded making up over half of the number, possibly 60-70%. Some people with severe injuries, some not so. It's just from seeing previous data on war casualties.
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Don't tempt me.
 
It's interesting that the 50,000 Palestinian deaths figure regularly comes up. Most people are unaware of the 400,000 Yemini deaths during the Saudi led bombing campaign. Because Israel is held to a different standard to everyone else for the crime of being Jewish.
 
ASCPFC said:
I tend to agree with this. I reckon they were just trying to get figures that suited a particular narrative.
In some WW2 raids, there were so many bodies that it took days to move them. Mountains of bodies, unfortunately.
I didn't really want to talk about it, as it's actually people we are talking about, but if there are multiple tens of thousands dead it's like a large football stadium crowd - which I just find doubtful from what I've seen. Although I don't particularly follow it closely.

However, as discussed previously, there are reasons that likely no one will ever know precisely or even approximately.

For my opinion:
I would think maybe the figures currently given could be closer to the figures for overall casualties - with wounded making up over half of the number, possibly 60-70%. Some people with severe injuries, some not so. It's just from seeing previous data on war casualties.
Click to expand...


25,000 died in that one Dresden raid. Typical bombload for a Lancaster was a "Cookie" of 4000lbs and dozens of incendiaries. The cookie was 4 times bigger than the standard Parachute Mine that was dropped in the Blitz by He-111s, just for perspective.

1747130651913.webp
 
Penge Eagle said:
It's interesting that the 50,000 Palestinian deaths figure regularly comes up. Most people are unaware of the 400,000 Yemini deaths during the Saudi led bombing campaign. Because Israel is held to a different standard to everyone else for the crime of being Jewish.
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They go strangely quiet, yet stories such as these are run, put out by the pro Arab UNRWA

www.bbc.co.uk

Gaza: Israel denying food to Gaza is ‘weapon of war’, says Unwra chief

Two months after all humanitarian aid was blocked, Philippe Lazzarini tells international editor Jeremy Bowen “starvation is spreading” inside Gaza.
www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk

They never mention the theft and control of aid by Hamas gunmen, and after 18 months of "starvation" and "drought" I'm yet to see the actual effects.

Meanwhile, as you rightly say in Yemen, a war that's been raging for a decade it's not hard to find actual famine pictures. Just google.

Where are the protests? Where are the complaints of war support? The UK directly arms and supports KSA with modern weapons but the protests are at supplying the IDF, where we supply virtually nothing. The protesters will complain on social media on the iPhones, yet Apple are an employer in Israel with their biggest R&D centre......
 
HKOwen said:
What are your views on Oct 7th? Do you see Hamas as freedom fighters, perhaps the legitimate army of the State of Gaza?
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You're 'tabloiding' again.

I've expressed many, many times over my condemnation for the actions of October 7th and Hamas as a group.

Boring and lazy.
 
Spindle said:
25,000 died in that one Dresden raid. Typical bombload for a Lancaster was a "Cookie" of 4000lbs and dozens of incendiaries. The cookie was 4 times bigger than the standard Parachute Mine that was dropped in the Blitz by He-111s, just for perspective.

View attachment 1074
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One of the apt things about this and the Dresden raid is how Goebbels just added a zero to the casualty figures more or less - and everyone went along with it. Until quite recently.
I'm not saying that similar has certainly happened in Gaza but it may have.
 
ASCPFC said:
I tend to agree with this. I reckon they were just trying to get figures that suited a particular narrative.
In some WW2 raids, there were so many bodies that it took days to move them. Mountains of bodies, unfortunately.
I didn't really want to talk about it, as it's actually people we are talking about, but if there are multiple tens of thousands dead it's like a large football stadium crowd - which I just find doubtful from what I've seen. Although I don't particularly follow it closely.

However, as discussed previously, there are reasons that likely no one will ever know precisely or even approximately.

For my opinion:
I would think maybe the figures currently given could be closer to the figures for overall casualties - with wounded making up over half of the number, possibly 60-70%. Some people with severe injuries, some not so. It's just from seeing previous data on war casualties.
Click to expand...

Genuine question; why do you find it doubtful?

The scale of the destruction to the landscape is enormous: Drone video shows striking images of Gaza before and after war
 
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