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Israel v Hamas

CPFCSaturn said:
There are plenty calling people 'Jew-haters' and running off as well - I think that's more abhorrent than sharing a link from the BBC, personally.

To be clear, my question is not about being comfortable from a moral standpoint - I mean based on the evidence we have, what do you think is a reasonable/logical estimate as to the death toll? I think based on some of what we know (examples in my post above), it's very difficult to make a serious case that we're not talking about tens of thousands dead.

And therefore my overarching point being that I find grandstanding over the 50,000 number to be semantical and largely irrelevant - I don't think there's any credible argument to suggest the death toll is drastically lower than this. Certainly the IDF's numbers are not close to credible.

I'm quick to point out that the military superpower who are directly responsible for the bombing and the withholding of aid from civilians are accountable for the deaths, yes.

We're also back to expecting more morality from the terrorist organisation than the military superpower purporting to respect international law. Funny enough, I expect considerably more morality from the military superpower than I do terrorists.

If we're on the topic of shifting blame onto the target of attacks, we could also get into how Israel could have better 'protected their people' on October 7th, but I don't think blaming the people being attacked is very appropriate.
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If you're that bothered about a number, then halfway between what both sides estimate is probably a likely figure. I think But of course nobody knows for sure.

Yes, October 7 was a serious security failure. But at least you admit it happened?

Only 1 in 4 British Muslims believe Hamas committed rape and murder on October 7. That's pretty shocking.
 
Penge Eagle said:
If you're that bothered about a number, then halfway between what both sides estimate is probably a likely figure. I think But of course nobody knows for sure.

Yes, October 7 was a serious security failure. But at least you admit it happened?

Only 1 in 4 British Muslims believe Hamas committed rape and murder on October 7. That's pretty shocking.
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Obviously it happened, yes.

A shocking headline, certainly, but a poll with 1000 participants from a population of 4 million is not proof of much. I'm also not sure why it matters in relation to my criticism of Israel.
 
CPFCSaturn said:
Many sources think the bombing in Gaza has surpassed that in WW2 - Robert Pape, who is a US academic specialising in bombing air power, has stated that the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza exceeds 70,000 tonnes, which is more than the combined bomb tonnage of Dresden, Hamburg and London.

Information like that, combined with the satellite images of Gaza showing the sheer scale of the destruction... I struggle to see how it's anything but tens of thousands dead, at least.
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Well he's a c*** then for saying it. It only shows either a lack of understanding of weapons, or that there's a narrative to attack the IDF. "Tonnage".......this is incredibly misleading having cherrypicked locations and the progress in weapons platforms able to deliver. An F-15E fighter can carry more weight of bombs than a late war Lancaster bomber for a start, and they aren't on an 8 hour round trip night flight where only 25% of the bombs dropped even land within a mile of the target. Dresden was set on fire with incendiaries which suffocated the population, a low tonnage but massive casualty rate, Hamburg was an industrial target and actually hit pretty heavily, and Germany never had ANY heavy bombers so London was actually barely scratched. A USAAF P-47 single engine fighter could carry about the same ordnance load as a Dornier 17 bomber.

The bloke is a prick for opening his mouth with such a ludicrous analogy.
 
Spindle said:
Well he's a c*** then for saying it. It only shows either a lack of understanding of weapons, or that there's a narrative to attack the IDF. "Tonnage".......this is incredibly misleading having cherrypicked locations and the progress in weapons platforms able to deliver. An F-15E fighter can carry more weight of bombs than a late war Lancaster bomber for a start, and they aren't on an 8 hour round trip night flight where only 25% of the bombs dropped even land within a mile of the target. Dresden was set on fire with incendiaries which suffocated the population, a low tonnage but massive casualty rate, Hamburg was an industrial target and actually hit pretty heavily, and Germany never had ANY heavy bombers so London was actually barely scratched. A USAAF P-47 single engine fighter could carry about the same ordnance load as a Dornier 17 bomber.

The bloke is a prick for opening his mouth with such a ludicrous analogy.
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I was going to post something similar but less detailed, the Pape extrapolation comparison is meaningless but he has books to sell
 
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