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War in Ukraine

I'm not even talking about expanding NATO, I'm talking about the appalling Cold War which the USA made sure was stoked. Nevermind NATO, that was creates just because their relationship with the USSR was so s*** and because of their insane race for nukes.

(Gave us some fantastic warbirds though)

Funny though, when Corbyn said no to nukes folks went bonkers, but now Trump is airing that whole idea, I just wonder whether they will have the same reaction. I'd doubt it.......
 
Spindle said:
I'm not even talking about expanding NATO, I'm talking about the appalling Cold War which the USA made sure was stoked. Nevermind NATO, that was creates just because their relationship with the USSR was so s*** and because of their insane race for nukes.
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Yep, it's why I liked your post. My response was only referring to that last sentence and its implication.

Spindle said:
Funny though, when Corbyn said no to nukes folks went bonkers, but now Trump is airing that whole idea, I just wonder whether they will have the same reaction. I'd doubt it.......
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CND wanted to disarm regardless of anyone else and hardly anyone regarded that as sensible. Reagan (back in a time of more sensible politicians)....wanted to reduce risks and that obviously meant stock piles and much success came from that, as did reductions in tensions.

All that was reversed with expansion east....and especially once the neocons took over. All we see nowadays are incredibly dim comments from high ranking politicians who....quite frankly are a massive downgrade from the past.....paid the same but not there on merit.

Most of the time signing cheques with their mouths that their economies can't pay just to sound good.....as in the modern era, virtue signalling passes for policy.
 
Jeffery Sachs has given a speech to the EU parliament saying that the only item left on the table in discussions between the US and Russia are territorial.
Ukraine being neutral.
Sanctions against Russia ended.
I didn't hear what he said about Russian assets held, which are mostly in Europe.....obviously a lot of other details such as the post nature of Ukraine....peacekeeping troops and where from or no peacekeeping troops.

Apparently Ukraine are in the loop.

Sachs seems to think an agreement will be reached, I don't know about that as I'm not seeing it myself....but I guess we will see.
 
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Russia are doing well on the battlefield so I'm not really seeing it myself....not immediate anyway.

However, fingers crossed on this as I think Trump is the only hope.

He has to cope with so much unrealism and unrealistic expectations that it's astounding that he's even got where he has or bothers. America continually getting slagged off yet those slagging them off are entirely dependent upon them.

Europe's leaders are idiots.....put themselves into the worse position. Spent another load of treasure for no gain and have to continually lie to justify it.
 
I can't see Trump getting the Nobel Peace Prize, whether he deserved it or not.....it's a political prize just like everything is political today.

These conflicts aren't really about 'peace' anyway. It's about settlements that both will sign up to.....that means winners and losers and hence resentments continue. Korea is a case in point and Ukraine....as many have said for a long time....will probably come to resemble that.

I know Trump puts himself forward as being against war.....and compared to most US presidents, I think that's more true than not.....However, he's fully for Israel's wars and that's because his donors insist on it....just as the Democrat ones do.

If he can bring peace to Palestine then he blows the Nobel Peace Prize out of the water.....However that isn't going to happen as far as I can see. Israel are speed running the greater Israel project and he's going to back it......probably more chance of creating a war than stopping one.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Russia are doing well on the battlefield so I'm not really seeing it myself....not immediate anyway.

However, fingers crossed on this as I think Trump is the only hope.

He has to cope with so much unrealism and unrealistic expectations that it's astounding that he's even got where he has or bothers. America continually getting slagged off yet those slagging them off are entirely dependent upon them.

Europe's leaders are idiots.....put themselves into the worse position. Spent another load of treasure for no gain and have to continually lie to justify it.
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I think you are giving far too much credit to Trump who will greedily claim it anyway regardless of whoever is actually responsible for it. Trump doesn’t do strategy. He reacts.

It seems to me that the real credit for putting the squeeze on Putin goes to the Ukranians. This is what Zelensky realesed earlier:-

“I received a report from our delegation on their meeting with the American team in Saudi Arabia. The discussion lasted most of the day and was good and constructive—our teams were able to discuss many important details.Our position remains absolutely clear: Ukraine has been seeking peace from the very first second of this war, and we want to do everything to achieve it as soon as possible and in a reliable way—so that war does not return.At this meeting with the Americans, Ukraine proposed three key points:silence in the skies—stopping missile strikes, bombs, and long-range drone attacks; silence at sea; real confidence-building measures in this whole situation, in which diplomacy is ongoing, which primarily means the release of prisoners of war and detainees—both military and civilian—and the return of Ukrainian children who were forcibly transferred to Russia.The American side understands our arguments and considers our proposals. I am grateful to President Trump for the constructive conversation between our teams.During today’s talks, the U.S. side proposed taking an even bigger first step—a 30-day full interim ceasefire, not only stopping missile, drone, and bomb attacks, not only in the Black Sea, but also along the entire front line.Ukraine is ready to accept this proposal—we see it as a positive step and are ready to take it. Now, it is up to the United States to convince Russia to do the same. If Russia agrees, the ceasefire will take effect immediately.”

So no backing down from them for the need to ensure “war does not return”, ie security guarantees. If Putin refuses Trump loses face. If Trump loses face because of Putin he could pivot again. No strategy. Just reactions.

I can imagine Zelenskyy offering to recommend Trump gets the Peace Prize in return for bankable security guarantees. Trump likes the attention and admiration. Peace Prizes. State visits. Trinkets as bribes to save lives.
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
I think you are giving far too much credit to Trump who will greedily claim it anyway regardless of whoever is actually responsible for it. Trump doesn’t do strategy. He reacts.

It seems to me that the real credit for putting the squeeze on Putin goes to the Ukranians. This is what Zelensky realesed earlier:-

“I received a report from our delegation on their meeting with the American team in Saudi Arabia. The discussion lasted most of the day and was good and constructive—our teams were able to discuss many important details.Our position remains absolutely clear: Ukraine has been seeking peace from the very first second of this war, and we want to do everything to achieve it as soon as possible and in a reliable way—so that war does not return.At this meeting with the Americans, Ukraine proposed three key points:silence in the skies—stopping missile strikes, bombs, and long-range drone attacks; silence at sea; real confidence-building measures in this whole situation, in which diplomacy is ongoing, which primarily means the release of prisoners of war and detainees—both military and civilian—and the return of Ukrainian children who were forcibly transferred to Russia.The American side understands our arguments and considers our proposals. I am grateful to President Trump for the constructive conversation between our teams.During today’s talks, the U.S. side proposed taking an even bigger first step—a 30-day full interim ceasefire, not only stopping missile, drone, and bomb attacks, not only in the Black Sea, but also along the entire front line.Ukraine is ready to accept this proposal—we see it as a positive step and are ready to take it. Now, it is up to the United States to convince Russia to do the same. If Russia agrees, the ceasefire will take effect immediately.”

So no backing down from them for the need to ensure “war does not return”, ie security guarantees. If Putin refuses Trump loses face. If Trump loses face because of Putin he could pivot again. No strategy. Just reactions.

I can imagine Zelenskyy offering to recommend Trump gets the Peace Prize in return for bankable security guarantees. Trump likes the attention and admiration. Peace Prizes. State visits. Trinkets as bribes to save lives.
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Not obsessed at all. 👍🏻
 
Trump does like the admiration bit, as Stirling was saying. He has everything he needs in life, it's just the glitter on top he's after. So you might have to suck a bit of Trump cock to get what you want,...as Stormy Daniels couldn't possible testify to.
Putin is a different kettle, as he's from a mobster background. A lot more difficult to play hardball with. But Trump can be very gracious and doesn't really settle for bad deals. His eye is on the Nobel Prize, because (as others have said) he won't get diddly-squat for the genocide in Gaza
 
For me I'm still seeing a complete lack of reality by both western media, Europe and Ukraine.

Even the US team in the middle east seem a bit deluded at the moment.....Maybe I'm wrong but I guess we will see once this ceasefire plan is taken to Putin.
 
eaglesdare said:
If Trump can broker a peace deal here he deserves a nobel peace prize.

www.foxnews.com

Ukraine accepts deal, says Rubio: 'We'll take this to the Russians'

Secretary of State Marco Rubio said Ukraine has accepted the U.S. 30-day ceasefire proposal and now Washington will take it to Russia which it will 'hopefully' accept before more negotiations can begin.
www.foxnews.com www.foxnews.com
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I'm not so sure that the strongarming blackmail of the weakest side is either nobel or even brokering. Starmer has done more negotiation and leadership during this by repairing the relationship between Zelensky and Trump. Maybe he should get it 🤷
 
Stirlingsays said:
Russia are doing well on the battlefield so I'm not really seeing it myself....not immediate anyway.

However, fingers crossed on this as I think Trump is the only hope.

He has to cope with so much unrealism and unrealistic expectations that it's astounding that he's even got where he has or bothers. America continually getting slagged off yet those slagging them off are entirely dependent upon them.

Europe's leaders are idiots.....put themselves into the worse position. Spent another load of treasure for no gain and have to continually lie to justify it.
Click to expand...

I can't agree because you've not taken into account history of why we're here and Americas role in that, which I have talked about here.
 
Spindle said:
I can't agree because you've not taken into account history of why we're here and Americas role in that, which I have talked about here.
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Dude, I've been talking about that for years on here.....are you trolling?

I literally said where we would likely be now back a few weeks after this started. All anyone had to do was look at the numbers and thus likely result.....I started out as pro Ukraine winning and all the 'morality' stuff before I looked at both sides. It's all on the Hol thread before we moved.
 
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