War in Ukraine

[DanH]

Another parallel with Germany invading Poland in 1939 is the ‘two distinct narratives’. Germany accused Poland of persecuting ethnic Germans living in Poland. They also claimed that Poland was planning, with its allies Great Britain and France, to encircle and dismember Germany. They also maintained that Poland attacked Germany first.

They other ‘narrative’ was that all this was bo****ks and that Hitler had to be stopped.

Hahaha 🙂

 

[Stirlingsays]

Another parallel with Germany invading Poland in 1939 is the ‘two distinct narratives’. Germany accused Poland of persecuting ethnic Germans living in Poland. They also claimed that Poland was planning, with its allies Great Britain and France, to encircle and dismember Germany. They also maintained that Poland attacked Germany first.

They other ‘narrative’ was that all this was bo****ks and that Hitler had to be stopped.

I answered this constant need to see the world of eighty years ago in post #487.

Even if what you're saying were true, the situation is similar to another covid turning up insomuch as what we have done since WW2 both socially and economically means we simply don't have the means to fight 'Putler'.....As for how Poland was left at the end of WW2...

In real life David doesn't beat Goliath, David gets smashed to pieces and this lack of realism by today's leaders until Trump has led to the very worst outcome for Ukraine....As I say it's been led down the primrose path.

What are you saying George? That we should all declare war on Russia? Because all that military funding of Ukraine wasn't changing the course of the war.

 

[georgenorman]

I answered this constant need to see the world of eighty years ago in post #487.

Even if what you're saying were true, the situation is similar to another covid turning up insomuch as what we have done since WW2 both socially and economically means we simply don't have the means to fight 'Putler'.....As for how Poland was left at the end of WW2...

In real life David doesn't beat Goliath, David gets smashed to pieces and this lack of realism by today's leaders until Trump has led to the very worst outcome for Ukraine....As I say it's been led down the primrose path.

What are you saying George? That we should all declare war on Russia? Because all that military funding of Ukraine wasn't changing the course of the war.

I’m mainly saying don’t let’s pretend that Putin’s ‘justifications’ are not more or less the sort of thing that Hitler said.
No, I don’t call for us to declare war on Russia but we and Europe should rearm as quickly as possible for when Putin attacks a NATO country – albeit NATO will probably fall apart when that happens with no unified action. That time has been brought forward by Trump’s appeasement.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I’m mainly saying don’t let’s pretend that Putin’s ‘justifications’ are not more or less the sort of thing that Hitler said.

Not you obviously but I think the left and social liberals see WW2 in every conflict whether it's appropriate or not....which it rarely if ever is. I mean we could use parallels with Vietnam, where intervention worsened everything. This constant reference back to WW2 as the backdrop to every conflict is just giving the left strength to attack you on anything right of Cameron as 'far right'.

No, I don’t call for us to declare war on Russia but we and Europe should rearm as quickly as possible for when Putin attacks a NATO country – albeit NATO will probably fall apart when that happens with no unified action. That time has been brought forward by Trump’s appeasement.

Trump isn't going to be leaving NATO.....It would damage America's military sales considerably and lower their influence (part of the reason for its expansion). So Russia isn't going to be attacking NATO even if it wanted to. I know you believe differently so we will just have to wait and see I guess.

Europe would need a good ten to twenty years to build up military self capacity and reliance away from America......and that's a whole ton of money that's currently going elsewhere......I don't see that being fully in America's self interest anyway. I think you're hearing a lot of hyperbolic talk that isn't going to go anywhere.

That said, personally I've always been against the destruction of our military and turning it into a bare bones operation.

However, I personally think Europe will talk tough but in reality fudge it.

What Trump wants is for Europe to pay more for NATO....but not separate the US out from it.....He might imply that to sound based but that's not in their self interest.

 

[Spindle]

Stirling have you ever watched "Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War" on Netflix? If you haven't you should. BTW I'm not using this as a counter in any way, just think it's a decent analysis on where we are now, and Putin's background (so similar to Hitler's rise and rage). It also explains just why the USA has such a military technical advantage on Russia, basically because Russia 'accidentally' bullshitted them into building the industrial military complex.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Stirling have you ever watched "Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War" on Netflix? If you haven't you should. BTW I'm not using this as a counter in any way, just think it's a decent analysis on where we are now, and Putin's background (so similar to Hitler's rise and rage). It also explains just why the USA has such a military technical advantage on Russia, basically because Russia 'accidentally' bullshitted them into building the industrial military complex.

It's a very decent potted history, however, no historical doc' is without bias.

I'd have thought that an expert on war like you would have known all that stuff anyway.

One thing it did highlight is that when the world is on the brink of nuclear disaster, compromise is required, even if it is not publically admitted at the time. The Cuban missile crisis required Kennedy to withdraw missiles from Turkey. Perhaps cool heads can resolve the Ukraine situation similarly.

Despite the righteous condemnation of Putin's irresponsible and ruthless attack, I'm sure the US and Europe are not entirely innocent in all this.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Stirling have you ever watched "Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War" on Netflix? If you haven't you should. BTW I'm not using this as a counter in any way, just think it's a decent analysis on where we are now, and Putin's background (so similar to Hitler's rise and rage). It also explains just why the USA has such a military technical advantage on Russia, basically because Russia 'accidentally' bullshitted them into building the industrial military complex.

When I stopped paying the BBC license, around 2021, I also stopped watching most streaming services. I realise that this means I miss out on the odd rare gem, fictional or non fictional. However, when people recommend something you can still hunt it down far more economically. For example, the lady of the house started watching 'The Terminal List' the other week and was waxing lyrical about it.

So I shall seek out this 'Turning Point' as history and warfare are interesting to any man with a cultural pulse. I'll get back to you on it.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

I recall going ot the Farnborough airshow in the early 1990's, after the Iron curtain had come down. For decades the West had been told how aged and decrepit the Russian military was.
Imagine our surprise to see MIG's at a Western air show that had much more advanced avionics that the western aircraft. Doing the Cobra manoeuvre by the Russian aircraft was a spectacular thing to witness for aircraft anoraks.
Now the Russians have shown they have hypersonic missiles, capable of avoiding most air defence systems.

What I'm saying is, don't necessarily be lulled into thinking that Western weapons systems is always the best.

 

[Stirlingsays]

It's a very decent potted history, however, no historical doc' is without bias.

I'd have thought that an expert on war like you would have known all that stuff anyway.

One thing it did highlight is that when the world is on the brink of nuclear disaster, compromise is required, even if it is not publically admitted at the time. The Cuban missile crisis required Kennedy to withdraw missiles from Turkey. Perhaps cool heads can resolve the Ukraine situation similarly.

Despite the righteous condemnation of Putin's irresponsible and ruthless attack, I'm sure the US and Europe are not entirely innocent in all this.

It's an interesting juxtaposition Hrolf. The social liberals have ruled the roost over the west unopposed since the nineties and were gradually encroaching since the sixties. For example by the late sixties I heard that left wing political professors in the universities were already at a one to three advantage basis with conservatives.. And that's your future political and managerial class right there. So that ideology is responsible for the managed decline both economically but more to this particular point socially and culturally.

Central to their whole mindset is anti nationalism. As I mentioned earlier, they see every conflict within the prism of Churchill v Hitler, like some rudimental good versus evil. They have indoctrinated every one of us with this.....just as the Russians have done with their own distinct nationalist version to their own spheres of influence. Very few people will ever have the time or inclination to seriously look for a deeper less biased analysis.

But regardless that focus on anti nationalism has the inevitable consequence that our young men have received far less of the type of upbringing that a lot of previous generations had....We as Gen X were the last generation to be raised on Zulu and the Falklands and not have our great history constantly demonized unopposed.

That, along with the effects of neoliberalism, makes the young male adult base far far less inclined to fight for the idea of nationhood or some future where 'we are in it all together' that plainly doesn't exist. They see that we are ruled by 'anywheres' instead of 'somewheres' and this sudden pivot to a defence of that 'anywhere' system just isn't going to work......I think recently only eleven percent of young people said they would fight for the country.

It's all their own doing.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I recall going ot the Farnborough airshow in the early 1990's, after the Iron curtain had come down. For decades the West had been told how aged and decrepit the Russian military was.
Imagine our surprise to see MIG's at a Western air show that had much more advanced avionics that the western aircraft. Doing the Cobra manoeuvre by the Russian aircraft was a spectacular thing to witness for aircraft anoraks.
Now the Russians have shown they have hypersonic missiles, capable of avoiding most air defence systems.

What I'm saying is, don't necessarily be lulled into thinking that Western weapons systems is always the best.

Yep, the media are paid to distill everything down into simple narratives that support whatever the ruling class (or just a thick set of lazy journalists) want you to think, that's not just the west it's everywhere.....At least in the west and with the Internet anyone was afforded the opportunity to research a topic. Before that it had to be as you describe here, someone employed or knowledgeable about the subject matter who could understand the difference between how the media present something and what the reality is.

I saw this myself in teaching.....There would be what I experienced in the profession and then there would be what was presented in the media.

It's a massive concern that just as with most of the world the west is now turning more authoritarian on the control of information and want to enforce narratives in a similar way to how China or indeed Russia operates.....different media sources are banned and blocked.

 

[eaglesdare]

It does look like Trump has finally made the EU leaders buck up their ideas and finally start talking peace deals and how to end the war.

Perhaps this was the intention all along.

Very refreshing to have an adult back in the room.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

It's an interesting juxtaposition Hrolf. The social liberals have ruled the roost over the west unopposed since the nineties and were gradually encroaching since the sixties. For example by the late sixties I heard that left wing political professors in the universities were already at a one to three advantage basis with conservatives.. And that's your future political and managerial class right there. So that ideology is responsible for the managed decline both economically but more to this particular point socially and culturally.

Central to their whole mindset is anti nationalism. As I mentioned earlier, they see every conflict within the prism of Churchill v Hitler, like some rudimental good versus evil. They have indoctrinated every one of us with this.....just as the Russians have done with their own distinct version to their own spheres of influence. Very few people will ever have the time or inclination to seriously look for a deeper less biased analysis.

But regardless that focus on anti nationalism has the inevitable consequence that our young men have received far less of the type of upbringing that a lot of previous generations had....We as Gen X were the last generation to be raised on Zulu and the Falklands and not have our great history constantly demonized unopposed.

That, along with the effects of neoliberalism, makes the young male adult base far far less inclined to fight for the idea of nationhood or some future where 'we are in it all together' that plainly doesn't exist. They see that we are ruled by 'anywheres' instead of 'somewheres' and this sudden pivot to a defence of that 'anywhere' system just isn't going to work......I think recently only eleven percent of young people said they would fight for the country.

It's all their own doing.

It's hard to disagree.

Nationalism clearly has its negatives, but it's also one of the cornerstones of civilisation.
How do you have a functional state without boundaries of various kinds?
Clearly, nationalism has been used to promote antagonism towards an enemy, but it doesn't have to limit cooperation between states or require adherence to elements of one specific culture where another might be advantageous. Equally, control over the choice of culture and the defence of the realm both militarily and with border security are musts if we wish to maintain our identity and sustain birth to death systems for financial and personal security.

We cannot use a guilt ridden view of history to dictate future policy. Learn by mistakes by all means but don't allow misplaced ideological naivety to make different mistakes going forward.

 

[Stirlingsays]

It's hard to disagree.

Nationalism clearly has its negatives, but it's also one of the cornerstones of civilisation.
How do you have a functional state without boundaries of various kinds?
Clearly, nationalism has been used to promote antagonism towards an enemy, but it doesn't have to limit cooperation between states or require adherence to elements of one specific culture where another might be advantageous. Equally, control over the choice of culture and the defence of the realm both militarily and with border security are musts if we wish to maintain our identity and sustain birth to death systems for financial and personal security.

We cannot use a guilt ridden view of history to dictate future policy. Learn by mistakes by all means but don't allow misplaced ideological naivety to make different mistakes going forward.

I think it was always the case that nationalism with a small 'n' was always a better healthier view of history.

But the damage is done....our institutions are literally legally required to be progressive bastions. Any other view is filtered out....they literally do the opposite of what the right did....with the right you would be promoted on merit, but with the left you are also required to agree with them politically.

It would take a Trump figure to emerge to even begin to change it......and I can already sense Europe's authoritarian left/liberals looking to ban rather than compete in the marketplace of ideas.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I think it was always the case that nationalism with a small 'n' was always a better healthier view of history.

But the damage is done....our institutions are literally legally required to be progressives bastions.

It would take a Trump figure to emerge to even begin to change it......and I can already sense Europe's authoritarian left/liberals looking to ban rather than compete in the marketplace of ideas.

Not a big surprise. That's what they do.

 

[ASCPFC]

I recall going ot the Farnborough airshow in the early 1990's, after the Iron curtain had come down. For decades the West had been told how aged and decrepit the Russian military was.
Imagine our surprise to see MIG's at a Western air show that had much more advanced avionics that the western aircraft. Doing the Cobra manoeuvre by the Russian aircraft was a spectacular thing to witness for aircraft anoraks.
Now the Russians have shown they have hypersonic missiles, capable of avoiding most air defence systems.

What I'm saying is, don't necessarily be lulled into thinking that Western weapons systems is always the best.

Look into radar signatures and stealth and you'll have your answer. Something like radar from the US can detect objects around maybe 12-20 cm. Russian radar more like 1-2 m. Considering that, I believe stealth technology reduces the radar signatures of F35s, for example, to 20-40 cm. Essentially, F35s/F22s can see the enemy well before the enemy can see them. Add in to that the over the horizon technology and integrated weapons systems and battlefield and I wouldn't be overly concerned with Migs - which would be fine in an out and out dogfight with speed, power and manoeuvrability - if they ever got in range of that.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Stirling have you ever watched "Turning Point: The Bomb and the Cold War" on Netflix? If you haven't you should. BTW I'm not using this as a counter in any way, just think it's a decent analysis on where we are now, and Putin's background (so similar to Hitler's rise and rage). It also explains just why the USA has such a military technical advantage on Russia, basically because Russia 'accidentally' bullshitted them into building the industrial military complex.

Hitler's rise is very specific to WW1 and conditions in Germany at the time. Even his version of fascism was specific to him and his set...for example his specific focus on Jews wasn't part of fascism in Italy or Spain.

Even his rise in his movement as the leader wasn't certain. In the twenties during the Putsch he was a part of.....the one top guy in their movement to be killed (Scheubner-Richter) was a more likely leader than himself....Hitler called himself the 'drummer boy'.

But my interest in our history feeds the very problem that I refer to of viewing everything within the lens of one specific war, time and place. I find myself doing it as well because we have all been raised with it....which was very deliberate.

 

[Stirlingsays]

A problem with political ideology......Let's take Nationalism or Progressivism, but it could be any type of movement....Is the bigger you make the 'N' and the bigger you make the 'P' the more exclusive and niche you make the movement. It's a problem for any movement's growth....The same problem that Sparta or Rome had, growing Sparta means you lose what Sparta is....not growing Sparta means that Sparta ends far quicker (Rome, like the Persians had a more successful take)....but like all empires and ideologies, they are all on timers due to factors beyond their control.

It's why both versions of liberalism, neo and social succeeded after the war and have lasted till now (and still, but they are also on a timer) as they are very generalistic and involve concepts that naturally appeal to the largest demographic set while requiring the least effort to support. What they offer, in my view, are lies and half truths but that is another discussion.

 

[DanH]

It does look like Trump has finally made the EU leaders buck up their ideas and finally start talking peace deals and how to end the war.

Perhaps this was the intention all along.

Very refreshing to have an adult back in the room.

Or maybe he’s just a Russian appeaser and not a grown up whatsoever.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1894075359630422386

 

[Stirlingsays]

Dan being upset over how the real world works.

America isn't globalistic.....well, at least not for the next four years anyway.....and Ukraine's self interest isn't America's.

You are though free are free to travel over and fight the Russians in a trench of your choice....well no, actually the trench choice very much won't be yours.

Alternatively you are also free to carry on supporting sending billions over there so we can slowly watch Russia continue to take land every day amid thousands of young men dying.....and I'll add, some of them forced to fight.

Or you could support someone who can actually end the war? Na....of course not.....No, apparently we should just continue the war they are losing until there is no Ukraine left it seems.

But apparently Trump can only do that if he insults the Russians during the negotiations.....yeah, great thinking there.

 

[DanH]

So funny how those who claim to be the biggest self-proclaimed ‘patriots’ rush to defend this country’s biggest enemy and security threat.

Funny kind of patriotism.