War in Ukraine

[McAhuna]

Apparently, NATO isn't interested in territorial expansion, only in defending itself.
Do people say this with a straight face? Is the power of BBC brainwashing that strong?

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Apparently, NATO isn't interested in territorial expansion, only in defending itself.
Do people say this with a straight face? Is the power of BBC brainwashing that strong?

View attachment 2421

Did we make these countries join NATO, or did they want to join because they fear Russian aggression?

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

No you don't.

Your politics....and that's only that which you expose on this board, has not only damaged this country but continues to cost it to the tune of billions....utter wastrel.

As for your obsession with my work status, mind your own business I've stated I'm not unemployed and actually what I do matters.....what you do only matters to you.

I am not the least obsessed with anything to do with you! I was merely responding to your suggestion I might pay your energy bills. Don’t want a response? Don’t make snide comments! Nor am I the least interested in what you think about what I do. You being right, for once. That only matters to me, and those I care for.

Having read your pontificating for many years I would be shocked and concerned if anything I wrote received your approval. A good rule of thumb being that the truth about anything is probably the precise opposite of your view of it.

I just respond to your constant nonsensical claims about the development of progressive politics and, in particular, your willingness to assist Putin in achieving his ultimate aims.

 

[Frenchaigle]

Apparently, NATO isn't interested in territorial expansion, only in defending itself.
Do people say this with a straight face? Is the power of BBC brainwashing that strong?

View attachment 2421

Have you ever considered that those countries want to move west and don’t want to be ruled by a forever gangster president in Putin .
Try living in Russia see how far your freedom of speech gets you there ! Either a very long cold stay in a Russian prison or a long fall off a balcony .
said with a straight face .

 

[Stirlingsays]

Did we make these countries join NATO, or did they want to join because they fear Russian aggression?

I always come back to what is in the British national interest.....Not what is constantly sold to us by the liberal media and government....which is a kind of western liberal globalism perspective that ignores cost and just focuses upon virtue signalling.....Again, it's HR also teenage girl like justifications most of the time.

A kind of 'I'll scream and scream until I'm sick' denial of the reality of the world.

Former eastern block countries wanting to join Nato? All post the Clinton/Bush governments decision to expand Nato east (dodgy when viewed what was said during the 91 Berlin negotiations).....Eastern European countries having their defence costs basically paid for by a foreign government? De facto becoming a client state of the US?

Yeah, I'm sure there's nothing but purity in that.

Who gained out of that, who was burdened by that?

It also, just like Poland did before WW2 leads to provocative statements being made by some of these eastern european countries, that do no favours to anybody looking to avoid escalations in tensions.

There are books that could and have been written about how we got to this point....it's not just one factor and was part of considerable discussion at the time....which was during the Clinton and then Bush presidencies.

This war was literally predicted decades ago......All our media ignore this and dismiss it as 'Russian talking points', even though these talking points was literally coming from within Nato decades ago.....Again, what they care about isn't the truth, it's.....well, at this point it's about avoiding blame.

I always come back to what is in Britain's national interest.

Making conservative sensible percentage decisions, not betting the farm on things turning up red, which seems to be the chancer like behaviour of western liberal elites....and again, when it doesn't work out they then blame everything else but themselves.

On that score I think what's been done by the neo/social liberals in charge of Britain this last generation amounts to practically criminal decisions.....The arguments against this Russian war were both censored and demonised and as with Covid and they didn't care about a discussion.

Typical boomers worsening the future.....everything they touched has put us in the sh1t.

 

[McAhuna]

Have you ever considered that those countries want to move west and don’t want to be ruled by a forever gangster president in Putin .
Try living in Russia see how far your freedom of speech gets you there ! Either a very long cold stay in a Russian prison or a long fall off a balcony .
said with a straight face .

Ridiculous. None of them were ever ruled by Putin. That ship sailed in 1990.

NATO could always stick to their promise. NATO doesn't have to accept new members.
The Warsaw Pact disbanded on the basis of a NATO promise not to expand eastwards, see how that turned out.

 

[adelaar]

I played this guy last weekend at the European Rapid & Blitz chess championships in Kosovo

Chess: Ukraine soldier grandmaster wins gold medal at European team championships

Igor Kovalenko, 36, the world No 48 with a Fide rating of 2669, has been a frontline soldier for three years and only began playing again a month ago

www.theguardian.com

Despite the loss, it's not often I congratulate my opponents for reasons not linked to the royal game.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I always come back to what is in the British national interest.....Not what is constantly sold to us by the liberal media and government....which is a kind of western liberal globalism perspective that ignores cost and just focuses upon virtue signalling.....Again, it's HR also teenage girl like justifications most of the time.

A kind of 'I'll scream and scream until I'm sick' denial of the reality of the world.

Former eastern block countries wanting to join Nato? All post the Clinton/Bush governments decision to expand Nato east (dodgy when viewed what was said during the 91 Berlin negotiations).....Eastern European countries having their defence costs basically paid for by a foreign government? De facto becoming a client state of the US?

Yeah, I'm sure there's nothing but purity in that.

Who gained out of that, who was burdened by that?

It also, just like Poland did before WW2 leads to provocative statements being made by some of these eastern european countries, that do no favours to anybody looking to avoid escalations in tensions.

There are books that could and have been written about how we got to this point....it's not just one factor and was part of considerable discussion at the time....which was during the Clinton and then Bush presidencies.

This war was literally predicted decades ago......All our media ignore this and dismiss it as 'Russian talking points', even though these talking points was literally coming from within Nato decades ago.....Again, what they care about isn't the truth, it's.....well, at this point it's about avoiding blame.

I always come back to what is in Britain's national interest.

Making conservative sensible percentage decisions, not betting the farm on things turning up red, which seems to be the chancer like behaviour of western liberal elites....and again, when it doesn't work out they then blame everything else but themselves.

On that score I think what's been done by the neo/social liberals in charge of Britain this last generation amounts to practically criminal decisions.....The arguments against this Russian war were both censored and demonised and as with Covid and they didn't care about a discussion.

Typical boomers worsening the future.....everything they touched has put us in the sh1t.

I would agree with all that, but we have to remember that there are two teams playing this game and paranoia is a strong motivator. America saw the fall of the USSR as an opportunity to make gain rather than a chance for eternal peace.

Was that justified? Who can see the future?

 

[Stirlingsays]

I would agree with all that, but we have to remember that there are two teams playing this game and paranoia is a strong motivator. America saw the fall of the USSR as an opportunity to make gain rather than a chance for eternal peace.

Was that justified? Who can see the future?

I would agree.

But the players involved get paid a sh1tload of money and status to make decisions that improve the future.

Not feck it up.

Avoiding wars that involve huge commitments of national treasure and resources is like basic common sense. Moving towards wars, without some huge national self interest involved....is a huge lack of it.

Elites being rewarded for sh1t outcomes is a big bug bear of mine.

When you get the impression that the plumber down the road could do just as good a job...nay probably a much better job as the top elites it p1sses you off.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I would agree.

But the players involved get paid a sh1tload of money and status to make decisions that improve the future.

Not feck it up.

Avoiding wars that involve huge commitments of national treasure and resources is like basic common sense. Moving towards wars, without some huge national self interest involved....is a huge lack of it.

Elites being rewarded for sh1t outcomes is a big bug bear of mine.

When you get the impression that the plumber down the road could do just as good a job...nay probably a much better job as the top elites it p1sses you off.

Do you remember believing that grown ups always knew what they were doing when you were a kid?

Now we know better. People are in charge because they want to be, not because they are good at it.

 

[johnny the eagle]

Apparently, NATO isn't interested in territorial expansion, only in defending itself.
Do people say this with a straight face? Is the power of BBC brainwashing that strong?

View attachment 2421

And, old man Putin hasn't expanded any Russian territory by illegally invading Ukraine and occupying the Donbas and Crimea, has he? If that is not expanding your country's territory, I don't know what is. Part of Putin's peace plan is to keep the Donbas and Crimea, an expansion of Russian territory, just a little bit hypocritical.

 

[McAhuna]

And, old man Putin hasn't expanded any Russian territory by illegally invading Ukraine and occupying the Donbas and Crimea, has he? If that is not expanding your country's territory, I don't know what is. Part of Putin's peace plan is to keep the Donbas and Crimea, an expansion of Russian territory, just a little bit hypocritical.

Chicken and egg. Russia was provoked by the threat of Ukraine joining NATO, after the CIA-backed coup of 2014. Plus the Ukrainian military shelling ethnic Russians in those regions.

 

[Stirlingsays]

And, old man Putin hasn't expanded any Russian territory by illegally invading Ukraine and occupying the Donbas and Crimea, has he? If that is not expanding your country's territory, I don't know what is. Part of Putin's peace plan is to keep the Donbas and Crimea, an expansion of Russian territory, just a little bit hypocritical.

Putin did exactly what the US would have done if Mexico or Canada had tried to move into an alliance against it.

There is a significant case of one eyed vision on all this....just look into the Monroe Doctrine.

The west has zero business being in Ukraine outside of trade.....which was originally what Ukraine's government wanted before it was overthrown.

Indeed, the US threatened WW3 over Cuba housing Russian missiles.....I'm not anti Trump but currently he's threatening bombing Venezuela for regime chance just because he doesn't like the regime.

Ukraine in Nato, is five hours drive to Moscow......If Nato put missile launches in there, as they did in Poland how would that been any different to what Russia tried to do in Cuba?

From the Russian perspective it couldn't respond to nukes placed in Ukraine.....it's one of the main reasons Ukraine was always a redline.....and they repeated this time and time again.

 

[johnny the eagle]

Chicken and egg. Russia was provoked by the threat of Ukraine joining NATO, after the CIA-backed coup of 2014. Plus the Ukrainian military shelling ethnic Russians in those regions.

Yeah, Ukraine was shelling its own territory, it was in Ukraine.

 

[johnny the eagle]

Putin did exactly what the US would have done if Mexico or Canada had tried to move into an alliance against it.

There is a significant case of one eyed vision on all this....just look into the Monroe Doctrine.

The west has zero business being in Ukraine outside of trade.....which was originally what Ukraine's government wanted before it was overthrown.

Indeed, the US threatened WW3 over Cuba housing Russian missiles.....I'm not anti Trump but currently he's threatening bombing Venezuela for regime chance just because he doesn't like the regime.

Ukraine in Nato, is five hours drive to Moscow......If Nato put missile launches in there, as they did in Poland how would that been any different to what Russia tried to do in Cuba?

From the Russian perspective it couldn't respond to nukes placed in Ukraine.....it's one of the main reasons Ukraine was always a redline.....and they repeated this time and time again.

I wonder why Ukraine wanted to join NATO.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I wonder why Ukraine wanted to join NATO.

Could you please even try to address the points.

Also, may I add.....why should we be interested in what countries on the edge of Europe want?

Do you want us fighting a war with Russia Johnny?

Are you going to be going to a trench yourself or is it always someone else's kid?

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yeah, Ukraine was shelling its own territory, it was in Ukraine.

Breaking the Minsk agreement that it had signed.

 

[McAhuna]

Yeah, Ukraine was shelling its own territory, it was in Ukraine.

So that's OK then?

Like it was OK when Yugoslavia/Serbia did it in the 90s?
Is that what you mean?

 

[johnny the eagle]

Could you please even try to address the points.

Also, may I add.....why should we be interested in what countries on the edge of Europe want?

Do you want us fighting a war with Russia Johnny?

Are you going to be going to a trench yourself or is it always someone else's kid?

I've been in many a trench myself, have you. I did my bit in the Army, signed up at 16 in 1964 in the 1st Battalion Queen's Royal Surrey Regiment, so you are barking up the wrong tree. And, I was addressing the point by posting that Putin is a hypocrite.

 

[johnny the eagle]

So that's OK then?

Like it was OK when Yugoslavia/Serbia did it in the 90s?
Is that what you mean?

The point of my post, as I posted to someone else, is that Putin is a hypocrite, read that post.