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War in Ukraine

The Orwellian never-ending Wars.

Does anybody really believe that the end of the Ukraine War, win, lose or draw.....that that will be the end of wars for a little while ? Dream on.

Ukraine War will finish. And five minutes later another War to fill the MSM news. Any predictors where ? i reckon Putin will target Morocco. To flood the Western EU from due South. Little rubber speedboats of refugeess. Travelling up and down the Western Seaboard. From Lisbon to Britanny. And onwards to our friend in Cornwall, and the rest of the Celtic fringe.
 
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Looks like the Kursk offensive was a very bad idea. The Ukrainians sent the best they had and seem to have lost most of their Himars and air defence. By concentrating so much into a small region to cover the Kursk line they would have increased Russian detection rates.

The Russians have already started their own counter offensive to take it back and Ukraine just don't have enough to hold them back. Kursk will be taken back within weeks. In the meantime Russia have moved significantly forward on the eastern front and could have most of the Donbas wrapped up if they take Pokrovsk before Christmas.

The Ukrainians are constantly asking for western intervention and equipment exactly because they in effect lost this war months ago. They can be propped up a little past Christmas but I can't see them making next summer.

All the nonsense written on this thread by people telling me that Ukraine/Nato were going to beat Russia (as if this is even makes a safer world). That Russia was running out of (insert noun). That sanctions were going to destroy the Russian economy (sanctions have never worked and have hurt us just as much as them). These were all lies and/or examples of people drinking 'intelligence' kool aid pushed through the media to justify this spending, just as so many did during the neo con Gulf wars (and I was one of them).

Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me......As the awful Bush once said.
 
Talking about ‘winning’ and Russia didn’t fire nuclear missiles each time we supplied equipment we were warned not to by putin, on Laura Kuennsburg’s show on bbc. Lammy, Piers Morgan, someone else. Winning? Hmmm.
 
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This is an interesting development....


IMF to visit Russia


Perhaps not as eye-grabbing as the reports on the fighting but an interesting reaction from the Western nations to it. Given we are told Russia is on its knees economically and how much sanctions are hurting it then surely official confirmation of that by the IMF would be welcome? LOL.
 
Matov said:
This is an interesting development....


IMF to visit Russia


Perhaps not as eye-grabbing as the reports on the fighting but an interesting reaction from the Western nations to it. Given we are told Russia is on its knees economically and how much sanctions are hurting it then surely official confirmation of that by the IMF would be welcome? LOL.
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Link doesn’t work.
 
According to Ukrainian media: More than 270 thousand weapons have disappeared or been stolen in Ukraine. Let it be noted that when Congress started this they did so voting against a Republican bill requiring an audit.

Totally not going to be sold on the black market then.

Flooding corrupt countries with deadly weapons is such a good idea.
 
Not directly about the war in Ukraine but Georgia has now officially banned LGBT propaganda, same-sex marriage, and gender reassignment surgery.

Based.
 
Common sense....a rare quality in today's politicians.....is being spoken in Italy by the leader of their 'Democratic Party of Italy' party.

Not all boomers in charge seem resolved to blow up the world on their way out then.

I'd just like to say by the way that this charge that having a position which is against Nato's 'expansion to the east' policy since 1991 means you're a 'Putin apologist' is insane. This policy was and has been opposed by many high up within Nato at the time and decorated commentators now, so the suggestion that opposing the expansion into Ukraine was a 'Russian talking point' is nonsense and frustrating.

It has made clear many times how this could lead to war, both as a general policy back in 1991 and in the early 2000s over Ukraine. Yet this has been memory holed by those seemingly determined to have war with a nuclear state.

I have yet to see an argument that informs me how a war with Russian improves outcomes in any way for Britain. All I can personally see are negative consequences.
 

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Russia effectively take Ugledar, which was one of Ukraine's largest fortified areas in the east and held Russia at bay for nearly two years. Its fall opens up a much more easier route for the Russians.
 
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Wall Street Journal: Trump's team is discussing a new plan to end the conflict in Ukraine, which proposes:

- freezing hostilities;
- giving Russia the currently occupied territories (about 20% of Ukraine) and forcing Ukraine to refuse to join NATO for at least 20 years;

The US, in turn, will continue to supply Ukraine with weapons to "contain" Russia. A demilitarized zone of 1,200 km will also be created.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Wall Street Journal: Trump's team is discussing a new plan to end the conflict in Ukraine, which proposes:

- freezing hostilities;
- giving Russia the currently occupied territories (about 20% of Ukraine) and forcing Ukraine to refuse to join NATO for at least 20 years;

The US, in turn, will continue to supply Ukraine with weapons to "contain" Russia. A demilitarized zone of 1,200 km will also be created.
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If anything was learned from WW2 it was appeasement with a tyrant (your solution) does not work. “NATO expansion “ is simply former Soviet occupied countries seeking protection from their occupiers. But you know that really don’t you.
 
Eaglehamster said:
If anything was learned from WW2 it was appeasement with a tyrant (your solution) does not work. “NATO expansion “ is simply former Soviet occupied countries seeking protection from their occupiers. But you know that really don’t you.
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Yeah, it certainly didn't work.

We went to war over Hitler invading Poland only to lose half a million men and our empire and position in the world, go bankrupt and give Poland away to Stalin and fifty years of communism, which for all we knew wasn't coming to an end.....and only for a form of western communism filtering down into our own systems.

After the war Germany and Japan quickly going ahead of us economically.....But hey we got Dad's Army out of it I suppose....and a lot of immigration in to tell us how racist and horrible we are.

Yeah clear win that was.

I'd agree and say appeasement to Stalin certainly didn't work. But hey dude, you keep your delusions going, while you struggle to keep warm this winter.

It certainly wasn't my fault.
 
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Eaglehamster said:
If anything was learned from WW2 it was appeasement with a tyrant (your solution) does not work. “NATO expansion “ is simply former Soviet occupied countries seeking protection from their occupiers. But you know that really don’t you.
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You mean like Hungry? You mean like Poland....which has had to cobble together a leftist coalition to stop the right wing who gained far more votes than any of them?

Yeah, they aren't as keen on war as you seem to be. Poland just recently refusing Ukraine's request to shoot down Russian missiles. That's not me mate, that's Poland.

I've no issues with you being on Ukraine's side, but personally I'm against fighting non existential wars with no upside but plenty of costs. I think it's been short sighted, costly and fool hardy.

Don't forget that you can sign up and fight in a frozen trench in Ukraine any day of the week. Nothing stopping you dude. If you are keen for others to die for your politics be at least willing to do the same. Otherwise it's just tribal virtue signaling.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Well, if this puts us all into war, which goes badly I hope certain people are satisfied and are prepared to pay the personal price of it.

I and others can say we never agreed with any of this.
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The idea that using weapons supplied by another country is an act of war is hardly credible.
Putin cannot win a conflict with the West and he knows it. He is counting on our fear of escalation.

His own concerns about it didn't stop him employing North Korean troops
or supplying missiles to Iran.

The best outcome for everyone would be getting around a table to agree a withdrawal of troops with some concessions by the West. First and foremost, not letting Ukraine join NATO or interfering in their internal politics.
 
Hrolf The Ganger said:
The idea that using weapons supplied by another country is an act of war is hardly credible.
Putin cannot win a conflict with the West and he knows it. He is counting on our fear of escalation.

His own concerns about it didn't stop him employing North Korean troops
or supplying missiles to Iran.

The best outcome for everyone would be getting around a table to agree a withdrawal of troops with some concessions by the West. First and foremost, not letting Ukraine join NATO or interfering in their internal politics.
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It's the extent of it.

Nearly all of Ukraine's weapons and economy is being supplied and propped up by....mainly America and to a smaller extent the EU via taxpayers. Otherwise Ukraine would have been defeated a long time ago......So when we talk about who is involved in this war and killing Russians, when we know the satellite information is being plotted and provided, that systems are being directed.....that isn't Ukraine....So obviously the Russians themselves have a different perspective on that.

Well personally I'd prefer it if foreign involvement had stayed out because Ukraine would still be a viable country. But our leaders beginning with Bush decided differently. Regardless now that it's a cold war Putin is making agreements with western enemies which didn't exist before. So he's employing North Korean troops, however let's be fair Ukraine have been employing foreigners in legions both officially and unofficially since the war started. Our own special forces have been over there and it's been largely kept quiet about.

I'd also agree that ending the war right now is by far the best outcome. However, it was realistic in 2022 and agreement was partly reached before Johnson and Biden intervened. Now, looking at the battlefield it's going to be very very difficult....Russia are winning quite significantly and convincing them to stop when they have Ukraine on the ropes won't be easy.....I suspect that if the boot was on the other foot Ukraine would be the same...Russia obviously aren't going to leave a battlefield situation where Ukraine can later reclaim the taken territories and I don't see Ukraine issuing a statement recognizing them as Russian now.

So it's difficult, but I hope you are right and the war can be brought to an end. I just don't see that as easy.
 
Stirlingsays said:
It's the extent of it.

Nearly all of Ukraine's weapons and economy is being supplied and propped up by....mainly America and to a smaller extent the EU via taxpayers. Otherwise Ukraine would have been defeated a long time ago......So when we talk about who is involved in this war and killing Russians, when we know the satellite information is being plotted and provided, that systems are being directed.....that isn't Ukraine....So obviously the Russians themselves have a different perspective on that.

Well personally I'd prefer it if foreign involvement had stayed out because Ukraine would still be a viable country. But our leaders beginning with Bush decided differently. Regardless now that it's a cold war Putin is making agreements with western enemies which didn't exist before. So he's employing North Korean troops, however let's be fair Ukraine have been employing foreigners in legions both officially and unofficially since the war started. Our own special forces have been over there and it's been largely kept quiet about.

I'd also agree that ending the war right now is by far the best outcome. However, it was realistic in 2022 and agreement was partly reached before Johnson and Biden intervened. Now, looking at the battlefield it's going to be very very difficult....Russia are winning quite significantly and convincing them to stop when they have Ukraine on the ropes won't be easy.....I suspect that if the boot was on the other foot Ukraine would be the same...Russia obviously aren't going to leave a battlefield situation where Ukraine can later reclaim the taken territories and I don't see Ukraine issuing a statement recognizing them as Russian now.

So it's difficult, but I hope you are right and the war can be brought to an end. I just don't see that as easy.
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I suspect that Russia only have the upper hand because the West has only been playing at supporting Ukraine so far. It has been a slow them down and drain resources mission. Presumably the hope was that Putin would become frustrated and find a way to save face while withdrawing.
The question is whether America will allow Ukraine to fall. What would that mean in the longer term?

The concern is that if Putin persists, the West will bring much more hardware to the battlefield and make a much stronger stand.
We have already allowed Russia and China to gain strong influence in parts of Africa with plentiful natural resources. They are on the march. This game is not one we can lose.
 
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