US Politics

[Wisbech Eagle]

Previous President Jacob Zuma!

The key word there is previous!

It’s been 7 years since Zuma was President. He was mostly known for his role in struggling against apartheid so unsurprisingly he knows that song.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Can I ask why you are so hung up on terminology?

We all know people are being killed, and we all know why.

Playing word games is hardly appropriate. Let any future court decide what to call it.

A fair question.

I jumped on the terminology because I know that poster has been a defender of Israel's conduct on here previously, and I want to understand how one convinces themself that there is a genocide in South Africa, but not in Gaza.

It seems the answer is to just invent your own reality.

 

[eaglesdare]

You live in a fantasy land and lack the willingness or ability to defend your views beyond soundbites - the most pointless type of contributor to a politics forum.

I’ve laid out facts on both South Africa and Gaza. You it seems are just here for the insults.

 

[eaglesdare]

A fair question.

I jumped on the terminology because I know that poster has been a defender of Israel's conduct on here previously, and I want to understand how one convinces themself that there is a genocide in South Africa, but not in Gaza.

It seems the answer is to just invent your own reality.

Israel is defending itself against a terrorist organisation. The white farmers in South Africa are just being killed or ran out of their country for being white.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

A fair question.

I jumped on the terminology because I know that poster has been a defender of Israel's conduct on here previously, and I want to understand how one convinces themself that there is a genocide in South Africa, but not in Gaza.

OK.
It's clearly genocide in South Africa, but Gaza is harder to define because the assault is allegedly to target Hamas. Because facts are sketchy about numbers and motive, it cannot be classified. The fact that women and children are dying is tragic enough, irrespective of what you call it. The problem for our moral viewpoint is that those children will probably grow up being taught that killing Jews is a good hobby.

As I said, definitions are for a court to decide, if such a trial ever takes place.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

OK.
It's clearly genocide in South Africa, but Gaza is harder to define because the assault is allegedly to target Hamas. Because facts are sketchy about numbers and motive, it cannot be classified. The fact that women and children are dying is tragic enough, irrespective of what you call it. The problem for our moral viewpoint is that those children will probably grow up being taught that killing Jews is a good hobby.

As I said, definitions are for a court to decide, if such a trial ever takes place.

I don't think it's sketchy at all, but I won't make this another Israel thread.

If anyone would like to discuss why they don't think it's a genocide in Gaza, I'd be happy to do so in the thread.

Zeven gerenommeerde wetenschappers vrijwel eensgezind: Israël pleegt in Gaza genocide

Genocidestudies: NRC sprak zeven gerenommeerde genocide-onderzoekers over Gaza. Zij zijn lang niet zo verdeeld als de publieke opinie: zonder uitzondering kwalificeren ze de Israëlische acties als ‘genocidaal’. En volgens hen zijn nagenoeg al hun collega’s het daarmee eens.

www.nrc.nl

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I’ve laid out facts on both South Africa and Gaza. You it seems are just here for the insults.

Facts 🤣 🤣 🤣

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I don't think it's sketchy at all, but I won't make this another Israel thread.

If anyone would like to discuss why they don't think it's a genocide in Gaza, I'd be happy to do so in the thread.

Zeven gerenommeerde wetenschappers vrijwel eensgezind: Israël pleegt in Gaza genocide

Genocidestudies: NRC sprak zeven gerenommeerde genocide-onderzoekers over Gaza. Zij zijn lang niet zo verdeeld als de publieke opinie: zonder uitzondering kwalificeren ze de Israëlische acties als ‘genocidaal’. En volgens hen zijn nagenoeg al hun collega’s het daarmee eens.

www.nrc.nl

In English please.


You still seem to be hung up on definitions.

Why? It's almost like you are taking sides.

 

[georgenorman]

The key word there is previous!

It’s been 7 years since Zuma was President. He was mostly known for his role in struggling against apartheid so unsurprisingly he knows that song.

I thought he was mainly known for rampant corruption, the shooting of unarmed black African workers and general incompetence and racism.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

In English please.


You still seem to be hung up on definitions.

Why? It's almost like you are taking sides.

There's a translate button:

"Seven renowned scientists almost unanimously agree: Israel is committing genocide in Gaza

NRC spoke to seven renowned genocide researchers about Gaza. They are not nearly as divided as public opinion: without exception, they qualify the Israeli actions as 'genocidal'. And according to them, almost all their colleagues agree with that."


I've explained why - I've been challenged numerous times for using the term 'genocide' to describe the situation in Gaza.

 

[eaglesdare]

There's a translate button:

"Seven renowned scientists almost unanimously agree: Israel is committing genocide in Gaza

NRC spoke to seven renowned genocide researchers about Gaza. They are not nearly as divided as public opinion: without exception, they qualify the Israeli actions as 'genocidal'. And according to them, almost all their colleagues agree with that."


I've explained why - I've been challenged numerous times for using the term 'genocide' to describe the situation in Gaza.

A left wing bias editorial. No wonder they found scientists who are also bias.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

A left wing bias editorial. No wonder they found scientists who are also bias.

What a way to receive information - just invent whatever reality you're comfortable with 👍

 

[eaglesdare]

Two Israeli diplomats shot, killed during event at Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, DC

Two Israeli embassy staff members were shot and killed while leaving a Jewish event at the Capital Jewish Museum in Washington, D.C., on Wednesday.

www.foxnews.com

Shocking

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

There's a translate button:

"Seven renowned scientists almost unanimously agree: Israel is committing genocide in Gaza

NRC spoke to seven renowned genocide researchers about Gaza. They are not nearly as divided as public opinion: without exception, they qualify the Israeli actions as 'genocidal'. And according to them, almost all their colleagues agree with that."


I've explained why - I've been challenged numerous times for using the term 'genocide' to describe the situation in Gaza.

I don't really believe in neutrality among scientists or anyone else.
Clearly, what we are calling it depends largely on whose side one favours. I'm sure someone could whip up some experts who claim the opposite.

Irrespective of definitions, I'd say that the motives for the assault on Gaza are fairly obvious.

 

[Badger11]

I don't really believe in neutrality among scientists or anyone else.
Clearly, what we are calling it depends largely on whose side one favours. I'm sure someone could whip up some experts who claim the opposite.

Irrespective of definitions, I'd say that the motives for the assault on Gaza are fairly obvious.

Agreed.

The idea of the scientist who observes and tests and then draws a conclusion is sadly not always true. Quite why the media insist that a scientist says... ergo it must be true.

Scientists are people, some good some bad, some follow the money or the fashionable trend and some are just out right nutters.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Agreed.

The idea of the scientist who observes and tests and then draws a conclusion is sadly not always true. Quite why the media insist that a scientist says... ergo it must be true.

Scientists are people, some good some bad, some follow the money or the fashionable trend and some are just out right nutters.

I agree with the issue you raise....the 'expert' always being right or the idea that consensus is only ever organic and doesn't also include self interest....well has been proven time and again in history not to be the case.

I also agree though that what's going on in Gaza is inhumanity and the vast majority suffering are innocent. There's no goodies and baddies, it's winners and losers....and the losers end up dead or with nothing.

For Israel to achieve their war aims that's going to have to happen.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

OK.
It's clearly genocide in South Africa, but Gaza is harder to define because the assault is allegedly to target Hamas. Because facts are sketchy about numbers and motive, it cannot be classified. The fact that women and children are dying is tragic enough, irrespective of what you call it. The problem for our moral viewpoint is that those children will probably grow up being taught that killing Jews is a good hobby.

As I said, definitions are for a court to decide, if such a trial ever takes place.

It most certainly is not!

There are some murders of farmers from a Boer background, among many murders, but not a systematic attempt to eradicate the whole group.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I don't really believe in neutrality among scientists or anyone else.
Clearly, what we are calling it depends largely on whose side one favours. I'm sure someone could whip up some experts who claim the opposite.

Irrespective of definitions, I'd say that the motives for the assault on Gaza are fairly obvious.

Where are they then?

“Contrary to public opinion, leading genocide researchers are surprisingly unanimous: the Netanyahu government, they say, is in that process - according to the majority, even in its final stages,” the investigation concluded. “That is why most researchers no longer speak only of 'genocidal violence', but of 'genocide'.”

"The report noted that even researchers who had previously hesitated to use the term have since changed their position, such as Shmuel Lederman of the Open University of Israel.

It also referred to the opinion of Canadian international law scholar William Schabas that Israel is committing genocide, although he is considered otherwise conservative with respect to genocide labelling.

In an interview last month, Schabas said Israel's campaign in Gaza was "absolutely" a genocide.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I agree with the issue you raise....the 'expert' always being right or the idea that consensus is only ever organic and doesn't also include self interest....well has been proven time and again in history not to be the case.

I also agree though that what's going on in Gaza is inhumanity and the vast majority suffering are innocent. There's no goodies and baddies, it's winners and losers....and the losers end up dead or with nothing.

For Israel to achieve their war aims that's going to have to happen.

I'm not remotely suggesting scientists or experts are some sort of infallible class incapable of being influenced, biased or wrong, but I'm also not comfortable with arguments from experts just being immediately dismissed because they've come from experts - that seems an entirely flawed logic.

Where there is a credible counter-argument presented by people(s) of similar expertise, I think you can certainly hold that up against the initial argument, but just dismissing a detailed argument with "well an expert said that, and other experts have been wrong before" is a very weak argument in my opinion.

Trump has labelled SA a genocide and everyone is happy to run with that as a fact, but unanimous agreement from experts on Gaza isn't sufficient apparently.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

I don't really believe in neutrality among scientists or anyone else.
Clearly, what we are calling it depends largely on whose side one favours. I'm sure someone could whip up some experts who claim the opposite.

Irrespective of definitions, I'd say that the motives for the assault on Gaza are fairly obvious.

We can agree they are obvious but probably not about what it is!

It’s obvious to me that this Israeli government, being dependent on hard right support who see both Gaza and the West Bank as legitimate parts of Israel, and led by Netanyahu whose own freedom depends on staying in power, has decided to use the atrocity committed by Hamas as an excuse to remove the Palestinians. That’s genocide.

It’s not just obvious to me, or a bunch of scientists. It’s obvious to everyone except those with eyes that refuse to see it.