Sage in or out

[doombear]

I do think its extremely unfair Sage is taking so much blame atm when the support he needed/deserved in the summer transfer window just wasn't there. I'd also question whether someone else could do vastly better with the players he has.
I agree sometimes a change (even for someone of similar or less reputation) can give everyone a lift but I'd question if say Sean Dyche were offered the job, looked at our current defence and players available to him whether he would even be interested in taking over.

Dyche said in last week's Beeb interview that he had turned down a couple of offers but naturally wouldn't identify who they were from. For all we know, we might have been one of them.

 

[martinelliff]

If he gets sacked it will be after Liverpool to give the new guy two weeks to settle in. After that we have a game every 4 days until after the FA Cup on 10th January (excluding Christmas week which would be a cruel time to sack him) or not until 10th February if we win the quarter final of the league cup.

 

[elgin eeagle]

I have been thinking about this. If you are Parish and the board and you know full well there is no money or very little money and you know you are going to sell 2 of your best defenders etc, why the f*** would you not appoint a pragmatic manager that builds a solid defence first and use the strongest part of our squad on paper, the midfield. I don’t understand why you would roll the dice like that. If they were willing to fund the ‘Project’ that got us a couple of trophies I could understand risking it but now we are just in this ghostly limbo state with what i am starting to feel is the wrong manager for the situation we are in.

I want to add that I would love Sage to turn it round but he needs help and I just don’t think we can wait for the January window which would mean he gets no help until Feb because the board will wait until the very last second to purchase a panic buy.

I think in the summer they wanted Iriola, and Sage was the back up option. Both were on the back on very successful seasons at their previous clubs. I always thought that whoever took over from Glasner and all his success was taking on a poisoned chalice though, and even more so once we sold Lacroix and Munoz on the back of selling Guehi. Riad and Tomiyasu getting injured has further compounded the problem, leaving us with a very poor defence for the luckless Sage and his creative ideology.

Add in the HF chucking their toys out, Sarr and Mateta being wankers, no Zaha type to win us games out of nothing and Hobbs not finding Freedman-esque quality replacements and you can easily see how what should have been a Europa League celebration season with a proper defence can quickly become a hard slog for any manager, with or without a creative mindset. I agree with others that say we should definitely not start down the forest route of sacking managers every 5 minutes to try to correct this, and instead try to eke out the odd win and give the manager more input into the exact french players he wants to replace our current defensive reserves in January. Maybe help him by adding a top defensive coach that will end the zonal marking pish and focus on cutting out crosses and stopping free headers at the far post. If not we will go down with this defence, whoever is the manager.

 

[DenTyler]

I think in the summer they wanted Iriola, and Sage was the back up option. Both were on the back on very successful seasons at their previous clubs. I always thought that whoever took over from Glasner and all his success was taking on a poisoned chalice though, and even more so once we sold Lacroix and Munoz on the back of selling Guehi. Riad and Tomiyasu getting injured has further compounded the problem, leaving us with a very poor defence for the luckless Sage and his creative ideology.

Add in the HF chucking their toys out, Sarr and Mateta being wankers, no Zaha type to win us games out of nothing and Hobbs not finding Freedman-esque quality replacements and you can easily see how what should have been a Europa League celebration season with a proper defence can quickly become a hard slog for any manager, with or without a creative mindset. I agree with others that say we should definitely not start down the forest route of sacking managers every 5 minutes to try to correct this, and instead try to eke out the odd win and give the manager more input into the exact french players he wants to replace our current defensive reserves in January. Maybe help him by adding a top defensive coach that will end the zonal marking pish and focus on cutting out crosses and stopping free headers at the far post. If not we will go down with this defence, whoever is the manager.

The thing that is baffling is getting a manager in to try and carry on the project left by Glasner whilst knowing you are going to sell 2 of the back line. It just doesn’t make sense. We reallly didn’t need to sell either of them. I said before that the Brighton model works because the owner has the vision so knows if he sells a player exactly what is needed to drop in as a replacement and nobody can argue this is not the case no matter how much they hate Brighton, the model is unbelievably good.

To take a supposed high press manager on and then take away the tools is like employing Lewis Hamilton as your team driver and giving him a Berlingo van. Madness.

Sage never really had a chance. Tomiyasu was always going to be injured. Riad ok it was unfortunate but his injury record is not great. Throw into the mix Mateta and Sarr. The fiasco of Johnson and I think any forward thinking manager struggles. Now we have a fit (for now) Eddie as our only striker.

We could be in real trouble. Liverpool is a free hit. But the following 2 league games Hull and Coventry, if we lose those we are in deep s***.

 

[samprior]

If he gets sacked it will be after Liverpool to give the new guy two weeks to settle in. After that we have a game every 4 days until after the FA Cup on 10th January (excluding Christmas week which would be a cruel time to sack him) or not until 10th February if we win the quarter final of the league cup.

That'll be two weeks to settle with the majority of his first team away! Leaving the manager probably just 2 training sessions with the actual first team before a huge must win game. Sounds extremely risky. If it happens it should have been after the Brighton game, or Newcastle game, or Spurs game. The board have had enough warnings but seem to be walking into an even bigger mess. Maybe we're just waiting for Rob Edwards to accept Hobbs friend request on Facebook so they we can proceed with negotiations.

 

[park the bus]

The thing that is baffling is getting a manager in to try and carry on the project left by Glasner whilst knowing you are going to sell 2 of the back line. It just doesn’t make sense. We reallly didn’t need to sell either of them. I said before that the Brighton model works because the owner has the vision so knows if he sells a player exactly what is needed to drop in as a replacement and nobody can argue this is not the case no matter how much they hate Brighton, the model is unbelievably good.

To take a supposed high press manager on and then take away the tools is like employing Lewis Hamilton as your team driver and giving him a Berlingo van. Madness.

Sage never really had a chance. Tomiyasu was always going to be injured. Riad ok it was unfortunate but his injury record is not great. Throw into the mix Mateta and Sarr. The fiasco of Johnson and I think any forward thinking manager struggles. Now we have a fit (for now) Eddie as our only striker.

We could be in real trouble. Liverpool is a free hit. But the following 2 league games Hull and Coventry, if we lose those we are in deep s***.

Absolutely correct. It illustrates the complacency of Parish and the team around him when they came to strategize the needs for this season.

 

[cROYdonrogers]

Lots of good comments on here but I hope the Mateta card doesn't cloud the issue. Now is the time to act not the International break when half the team are away. Need to pick somebody who's best equipped to bring us back up, because at the moment relegation is a real threat - not inevitable but real.
Your potential candidates are Frank, Dyche or McKenna.

 

[PatrickA]

Much talk on here about whether Parish will act, but the views of the American owners cannot be disregarded.
They may not be 'hands on' owners, or even particularly interested in the team, but they sure as hell will be interested in protecting their investment.
Relegation for them is something that would seriously jeopardise that.
Parish is not the sole decision maker here, even if he's largely left to do the day running of the club.
Key decisions, however, such as major expenditure and firing a manager revert to the ownership group.

 

[Willo]

Much talk on here about whether Parish will act, but the views of the American owners cannot be disregarded.
They may not be 'hands on' owners, or even particularly interested in the team, but they sure as hell will be interested in protecting their investment.
Relegation for them is something that would seriously jeopardise that.
Parish is not the sole decision maker here, even if he's largely left to do the day running of the club.
Key decisions, however, such as major expenditure and firing a manager revert to the ownership group.

A valid assertion. Comments which have basis in fact.
I would add that given their investment they do have interest in the team.
👍

 

[park the bus]

Much talk on here about whether Parish will act, but the views of the American owners cannot be disregarded.
They may not be 'hands on' owners, or even particularly interested in the team, but they sure as hell will be interested in protecting their investment.
Relegation for them is something that would seriously jeopardise that.
Parish is not the sole decision maker here, even if he's largely left to do the day running of the club.
Key decisions, however, such as major expenditure and firing a manager revert to the ownership group.

Very valid points. I would be interested to know who exactly is behind actual football strategy? The choice of manager, the players, the style of football? It can't all be left to chance, or drifting along on what came before although there's certainly an element of that. What has been noticeable is the decrease in quality and league position since the departure of Director of Football Dougie Freedman. I get the impression that he was doing a pretty good job and his expertise is sorely missed. Parish can't be making these decisions by himself.

 

[JHB]

Very valid points. I would be interested to know who exactly is behind actual football strategy? The choice of manager, the players, the style of football? It can't all be left to chance, or drifting along on what came before although there's certainly an element of that. What has been noticeable is the decrease in quality and league position since the departure of Director of Football Dougie Freedman. I get the impression that he was doing a pretty good job and his expertise is sorely missed. Parish can't be making these decisions by himself.

This is a good question. Under Glasner, for all it ended badly, you could see what he wanted. Kamada, Lacroix and Munoz were all ones he specifically wanted to get. I know Munoz was signed before Glasner joined but the deal was in place for him to be manager. We didn’t always get it right (Nketiah) but the core of the team was to fit what Glasner wanted.

With Sage as far as I can tell we haven’t signed anyone he asked for and it doesn’t look like he asked for specific players. We don’t know for sure of course. Maybe he did and we couldn’t get them. What we do know is the players signed don’t seem to fit any sort of template and Sage clearly doesn’t rate or want some of them.

 

[MarkA333]

I am not sure which manager in his right mind would want to take over this mess. I would like Eddie Howe but he is unlikely to come. The rest are a pretty uninspiring bunch. And you can’t make a silk purse out of a sow’s ear and sadly that’s the squad we have. Especially with Mateta out and Sarr sulking as he did at Watford. This is a recipe for disaster. I can see us cut adrift by the January window. We all called it at the start of the season so why could ‘the professionals’ not see what was glaringly obvious?

 

[thai-eagle]

I have watched several videos (UTube) of Palace training with or without ball. A popular choice seems to set up a small box and play one touch/quick passes to each other. But that is rarely needed in matches. More important is being able to pass a normal pass to each other. How often do we see the opposite - either out of touch or the ball straight to an opponent. And the players are professionals in PL - really? As much as I like Sage as a person, he seems to be disqualified for the job. How many times have the opposite team made us pay by posting a player (or two) on the back post this season on corners? And it happens over and over again....how come?

 

[eritheagle]

If he gets sacked it will be after Liverpool to give the new guy two weeks to settle in. After that we have a game every 4 days until after the FA Cup on 10th January (excluding Christmas week which would be a cruel time to sack him) or not until 10th February if we win the quarter final of the league cup.

He can't get sacked on 10th february. It will over shadow my 50th birthday!!

 

[park the bus]

This is a good question. Under Glasner, for all it ended badly, you could see what he wanted. Kamada, Lacroix and Munoz were all ones he specifically wanted to get. I know Munoz was signed before Glasner joined but the deal was in place for him to be manager. We didn’t always get it right (Nketiah) but the core of the team was to fit what Glasner wanted.

With Sage as far as I can tell we haven’t signed anyone he asked for and it doesn’t look like he asked for specific players. We don’t know for sure of course. Maybe he did and we couldn’t get them. What we do know is the players signed don’t seem to fit any sort of template and Sage clearly doesn’t rate or want some of them.

I'd also add that nowhere in a million years would I expect Steve Parish to splurge near £90m on two players of questionable ability, yet he did. All very strange and a sure sign that things have changed and not for the better.
The departure of Freedman and Palace's poor subsequent league form and questionable signings more or less overlap and cannot be mere coincidence.

 

[doombear]

The thing that is baffling is getting a manager in to try and carry on the project left by Glasner whilst knowing you are going to sell 2 of the back line. It just doesn’t make sense. We reallly didn’t need to sell either of them. I said before that the Brighton model works because the owner has the vision so knows if he sells a player exactly what is needed to drop in as a replacement and nobody can argue this is not the case no matter how much they hate Brighton, the model is unbelievably good.

To take a supposed high press manager on and then take away the tools is like employing Lewis Hamilton as your team driver and giving him a Berlingo van. Madness.

Sage never really had a chance. Tomiyasu was always going to be injured. Riad ok it was unfortunate but his injury record is not great. Throw into the mix Mateta and Sarr. The fiasco of Johnson and I think any forward thinking manager struggles. Now we have a fit (for now) Eddie as our only striker.

We could be in real trouble. Liverpool is a free hit. But the following 2 league games Hull and Coventry, if we lose those we are in deep s***.

I think we needed to make nett sales of about £40-50m to keep within UEFA's SCR rules or face sanctions. So basically, Lacroix or Wharton had to be sold. As for Munoz, Forest were prepared ti pay over the odds for him so we took the money believing that Mingueza and Khalaili would be adequate replacements. One or both of them may well prove to be so once they've settled fully and adjusted to the PL. The issue was not getting a proper replacement for Lacroix although it seems we did try and do that but couldn't get the right deal over the line.

 

[BromleyMonkey]

I think we needed to make nett sales of about £40-50m to keep within UEFA's SCR rules or face sanctions. So basically, Lacroix or Wharton had to be sold. As for Munoz, Forest were prepared ti pay over the odds for him so we took the money believing that Mingueza and Khalaili would be adequate replacements. One or both of them may well prove to be so once they've settled fully and adjusted to the PL. The issue was not getting a proper replacement for Lacroix although it seems we did try and do that but couldn't get the right deal over the line.

I’m not it was over the odds, yes he’s 30 now and we can debate when he lacks his usual energy after international breaks etc he’s half the player, but looking at his two replacements it feels like Forest stole him now

 

[JHB]

I’m not it was over the odds, yes he’s 30 now and we can debate when he lacks his usual energy after international breaks etc he’s half the player, but looking at his two replacements it feels like Forest stole him now

Yes, half the player he was is still twice the player that either Khalali or Mingueza have been for us. I still hold out hope for Mingueza if he gets a run. Khalali doesn’t look like a professional footballer. He’s awful at everything. Maybe he will transform under a different manager but he just doesn’t look up to it

 

[TheBigToePunt]

I take modern football stats with a pinch of salt, but this is interesting, especially regarding the relationship between our performances and our results...

Should Premier League strugglers stick or twist as pressure on managers mounts? | Andrew Beasley

Unusually, all clubs in the top flight have the same manager with whom they began the season – but the first sacking may not be far away

www.theguardian.com

Essentially, what the graph is saying is that some teams, like Forest and Sunderland, have far fewer points than their performances deserved (using the xG metric, anyway), whilst others have had a tiny bit of luck.

We, in contrast, are the worst team in the league in statistical chances made/allowed whether you use the data or reality.

If anyone still felt that, in terms of chances, we might have been lucky in one game but unlucky in another and so it all evens out, this perhaps disproves that idea.

Whether one attributes that to Sage, the quality of the squad, unavailability of key players, limited training time in summer, or whatever else, it's still pretty stark