Sage in or out

Sage in or out

  • In

    Votes: 69 42.9%

  • Out

    Votes: 64 39.8%

  • Sit on the fence

    Votes: 28 17.4%
  • Total voters
    161
One school of thought:
  • We seem to do the same things each game expecting a different result.
  • Slow starts
  • inconsistent tempo
  • overrun midfield
  • back three pulled out of position and left exposed down our right flank
  • individual errors at the back playing out
  • poor to no leadership
  • enterprising going forward but needing to score three or more goals to win most games
  • relegation form and confidence dropping in the players.
Another school of thought:
  • We offloaded two of our best centre halves last year and have replaced them with inferior players
  • We offloaded one of our star players of the last three years (Munoz) and replaced him with an inferior player
  • We have had a high turnover of first XI players, especially at the back
  • The main men up front (JPM and Sarr) have yet to get out of the blocks this year and they may well not do for different reasons
  • The manager is new to the league, new the the country and settling in.
  • He has had one breakout season in France and got the Palace gig on that basis.
  • Most of his staff are also new.
  • Would someone else do a better job as the manager in these circumstances?
On balance, I'm leaning towards the second school of thought and therefore am "in" until around Christmas.

I do not think it can get much worse before it gets better.

If we look as vulnerable as we do right around the New Year then it will be a clear case of sunk cost fallacy to keep Sage in post. But let's give the guy a chance - I think he has the smarts to turn it around and we could be dangerously close to something very good.
 
We are 7 games into the Premier League season and so we have had chance to see what Sage is about. Defensively Leeds was the only game we really played well in. Fulham and Forest were games we won but we needed to score 3 goals and we conceded way more chances than we created in both these games. I thought we were a little unlucky to lose against Ipswich but otherwise we were certainly fortunate to win the games we have.
The question is it just a case that we have been hit by injuries and suspension along with other player disruptions and so have not been able to put our best team out on the pitch, poor recruitment having sold a lot of our best players, or poor management. I suspect it is a combination of the 3 and whether Sage stays will depend on how the board a portion the amount poor management has been part of the problem.
We will have Disasi back from suspension, plus Sarr and Mateta are now playing albeit as subs. This should mean Kamada can return to strengthen the midfield as could Lerma (if we need to be more defensive minded in the middle of the pitch)
It may take a few more games for Sarr and Mateta to get up to speed but it may mean we can drop the wing backs a bit deeper and leave it to these guys to play off each other.
Not mentioned by others but both Timber and Wharton have played nearly every game with little rest so it would be good to rotate them with Kamanda \Hughes to keep them fresh now we have more options going forward.
 
viveasheagle said:
We are 7 games into the Premier League season and so we have had chance to see what Sage is about. Defensively Leeds was the only game we really played well in. Fulham and Forest were games we won but we needed to score 3 goals and we conceded way more chances than we created in both these games. I thought we were a little unlucky to lose against Ipswich but otherwise we were certainly fortunate to win the games we have.
The question is it just a case that we have been hit by injuries and suspension along with other player disruptions and so have not been able to put our best team out on the pitch, poor recruitment having sold a lot of our best players, or poor management. I suspect it is a combination of the 3 and whether Sage stays will depend on how the board a portion the amount poor management has been part of the problem.
We will have Disasi back from suspension, plus Sarr and Mateta are now playing albeit as subs. This should mean Kamada can return to strengthen the midfield as could Lerma (if we need to be more defensive minded in the middle of the pitch)
It may take a few more games for Sarr and Mateta to get up to speed but it may mean we can drop the wing backs a bit deeper and leave it to these guys to play off each other.
Not mentioned by others but both Timber and Wharton have played nearly every game with little rest so it would be good to rotate them with Kamanda \Hughes to keep them fresh now we have more options going forward.
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With respect, the worse thing we could do is return Kamada to the midfield. He is excelling as a 10 and offering so much more than he did as one of the two midfielders, where he was weak and got played through. Timber is the long term answer there, plus we have Doucoure getting fitter and fitter every week, plus Hughes and Lerma can still do a job there.

Sarr will have to earn his place back, like everyone else.
 
In. I left the game early yesterday which never happens but the thought of being kettled was too much to bear. And they scored another goal. Kudos to those who stayed.

But I am surprised so many of my fellow fans are ready to pull the trigger on Sage already.

Sage hasn’t been able to play our best defence, with Riad and Tomiyasu injured. And of course Henderson. That said, I was amazed Lerma didn’t start after his performance against Forest. I know he has his limitations but he has nous. Playing two inexperienced and naive players against that lot was dumb. Very dumb.

But it highlights the poor hand Sage has been dealt. Personally I’d rather us play two CBs as we don’t have 3 good ones. It would allow us to play 3 in the middle and hopefully not get as overrun as regular and easily as we are now.

It’s worth pointing out that we’ve been good going forward despite being without JPM and Sarr. That’s to Sage’s credit but also reflects the squad’s quality up front.

Unlike at the back: Canvot and Ahanor shouldn’t be both starting and it wasn’t long ago that Richards started most games on the bench. Now he’s the best of a poor bunch! Our squad is really thin in this position. How can a new coach fix that? Unless there’s someone ready made replacement who is a player manager (remember them?).

Sage’s shown he can set us up properly so he should get more time.
 
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Does anyone remember the very early Glasner Days when
1) if one wing back (usually Munoz) would go high up the pitch, one of the CBs would cover at wing back and the others would shuffle round to make a back four or
2) We would play in a back 5, but one of the CBs (usually Guehi) would often jump into midfield to stop us being overrun

The trouble is that we've lost both the personnel and the coaching to do this. I also wonder if the Premier League has wised up to this which is why we weren't as effective as time went on last season.

Clearly Sage has to improve the defence or, I reckon, he's gone in the international break. If he still wants us to bomb forward when in possession we need to keep 4 at the back, so I think a 4-3-3 is necessary.

I always find it odd that managers don't like changing tactics. We are one of the few remaining sports where if something isn't working we just keep doing the same things over and over.
 
Willo said:
He reminded me of Frank De Boer and his tenure was ephemeral !
On the touchline, Sage remains motionless, offering no encouragement to the players at all resembling a rabbit caught in the headlights. Perhaps he is deep in thought analysing our team and opponents.
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Think that is the case . He now knows he hasn't the players for a pressing game , at the moment .
He did set up 442 at lyon to start with but he knew the players he had . We have 11 , will say again 11 new players signed this year . And no Lacroix or Munoz .
Defragmented squad due to new arrivals injuries and players returning from WC duty .
That for me is about as tuff a start in a new job that anyone can get .
If he doesn't change to a more defensive formation over the next 2 lge games then he will have to go . Did say December after the match , but after his press conference think 2 lge games showing better defensive play means he is trying a plan B . If thats not working then cant see a new manager doing any better .
People have praised brighton way of doing things but . The manager who not so long ago they was calling for the him to be sacked , and they stuck with him .
So you cant point out one clubs way and not do it yourself , that doesn't make sense
 
Canterbury Palace said:
I would have said give him a chance but he sounded so defeated in his press conference. I don't know how, with that demeanor, he is expected to motivate the players.

I think he needs to beat Besiktas and get a point against Newcastle to stay in his position.
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I somehow doubt there is an overall anticipation amongst our supporters that we will beat a free-scoring Besiktas in Istanbul.
Newcastle have lost their last 2 Away games 4-1 but we play them 3 days after returning from Turkey and I suspect our fan base are fearful of yet another defeat based on our frailties.
 
RubinsCube said:
One school of thought:
  • We seem to do the same things each game expecting a different result.
  • Slow starts
  • inconsistent tempo
  • overrun midfield
  • back three pulled out of position and left exposed down our right flank
  • individual errors at the back playing out
  • poor to no leadership
  • enterprising going forward but needing to score three or more goals to win most games
  • relegation form and confidence dropping in the players.
Another school of thought:
  • We offloaded two of our best centre halves last year and have replaced them with inferior players
  • We offloaded one of our star players of the last three years (Munoz) and replaced him with an inferior player
  • We have had a high turnover of first XI players, especially at the back
  • The main men up front (JPM and Sarr) have yet to get out of the blocks this year and they may well not do for different reasons
  • The manager is new to the league, new the the country and settling in.
  • He has had one breakout season in France and got the Palace gig on that basis.
  • Most of his staff are also new.
  • Would someone else do a better job as the manager in these circumstances?
On balance, I'm leaning towards the second school of thought and therefore am "in" until around Christmas.

I do not think it can get much worse before it gets better.

If we look as vulnerable as we do right around the New Year then it will be a clear case of sunk cost fallacy to keep Sage in post. But let's give the guy a chance - I think he has the smarts to turn it around and we could be dangerously close to something very good.
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I am not sure they are separate schools of thought. It is entirely possible Sage has been landed with difficult circumstances but then made them worse through poor tactics, selection and man management.

It may be harsh, it may be that the summer transfer business was bad (it was). However, we can’t change the squad now. We can’t do anything about selling Lacroix. The only change available to the club is to change the manager. Right now it is a question if we should but keep on playing as we are and it won’t be a question for much longer
 
JHB said:
I am not sure they are separate schools of thought. It is entirely possible Sage has been landed with difficult circumstances but then made them worse through poor tactics, selection and man management.

It may be harsh, it may be that the summer transfer business was bad (it was). However, we can’t change the squad now. We can’t do anything about selling Lacroix. The only change available to the club is to change the manager. Right now it is a question if we should but keep on playing as we are and it won’t be a question for much longer
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I am not going to gallivant down that alley in respect of the tenureship of Pierre Sage.
In general terms supporters mindsets are influenced by results and performances, however what happens away from the glare of the pitch and far removed from the public domain can influence decisions of the 'Board'.
 
StandbyPalace said:
In Out In Out Shake it all about, are we Forest in disguise? Is a Palace manager not allowed to lose to Brighton ever because of Alan Mullery?
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I think it’s the manor of the defeat, we were a shambles from start to finish. We could all see even our two wins we rode our luck and were all over the place defensively and sooner or later a good team was going to give us a good hiding, it just had to be them buggers, although I’d rather it them than Chelsea, but that’s another story
I’ve defended him because I don’t want to go back to the turgid football we played under Roy and I’d sooner have a relegation battle at least attacking and scoring.
But playing like this, it won’t be the last good hiding we take and if SP is going to wield the axe he’d better do it now while we’ve got plenty of the season left
 
My worry is that our club is heading down the Leicester City road. This team will struggle to survive in the Championship. It needs sorting now. Not sure anyone coming in today will stop the next two defeats but we need it changed now / today in my opinion.
 
For me, it is all about how Sage responds to this chastening defeat. A good manager will lick his wounds and then set about identifying what went wrong and fixing it so it doesn't happen again. If in the next few games nothing has changed and nothing has been done to tighten up the defence, then that is a big concern and suggests maybe he doesn't have it in him. Recruitment in the defensive positions has been poor, but it is what it is, so now it's Sage's job to find a solution.

Managers on the brink have turned it around at other clubs by a change in tactics, like Farke at Leeds, so I don't think it's over for Sage, but I imagine Parish will be asking what he plans to do to fix things. The other major thing is the mood around the club, which we're not privy to. Parish will know how the players and staff are feeling about things. If there is support for Sage, then I imagine Steve will be more patient. Like with Dyche at Forest, once the players start complaining to the chairman, you don't have much time left.
 
To me it comes down to this ; can Sage turn things around ?

My gut feeling is that he can't.

I have a lot of sympathy for him. Despite our recent success, the club feels like it's going backwards rather than building on that success.

It's not always one person that is responsible when a club is experiencing difficulties. And in this current situation I think Parish and Hobbs are culpable. But it is always one person that carries the can, the manager.

I don't expect Sage to be at Palace next week.
 
taylors lovechild said:
For me, it is all about how Sage responds to this chastening defeat. A good manager will lick his wounds and then set about identifying what went wrong and fixing it so it doesn't happen again. If in the next few games nothing has changed and nothing has been done to tighten up the defence, then that is a big concern and suggests maybe he doesn't have it in him. Recruitment in the defensive positions has been poor, but it is what it is, so now it's Sage's job to find a solution.

Managers on the brink have turned it around at other clubs by a change in tactics, like Farke at Leeds, so I don't think it's over for Sage, but I imagine Parish will be asking what he plans to do to fix things. The other major thing is the mood around the club, which we're not privy to. Parish will know how the players and staff are feeling about things. If there is support for Sage, then I imagine Steve will be more patient. Like with Dyche at Forest, once the players start complaining to the chairman, you don't have much time left.
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Exactly. Despite the bad hand he has been dealt, he has to show some form of positive response over the next two games. Many of us will accept a narrow loss at Besiktas but we need to be very competitive against Newcastle. If we lose both games and ship 2 or 3 goals in each of them, I think he will be gone.

Having said that, I am not sure who I would want to come in. Howe has rejected us before and I don't see him galvanising us in what might be a relegation battle. I see Dyche as a last throw of the dice in January. That seems to leave only Frank but wonder why no-one else has tried to tempt him out of his "sabbatical".

I guess I am hoping that Sage shows he has a plan B, or can successfully adapt Plan A, over the next couple of games.
 
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After yesterday I was Sage out....today im not sure. If he goes we could end up with Edwards (Hobbs has form)...at least he has shown some ability to attack & if hes given a half decent CB in January, it's up to him.

We also miss Deano, bring back our first choice captain, let Wharton focus on himself and we can get our season back on track, I dont see us getting anything out of Besiktas...but wouldn't that be the palace way? COYP and come on Pierre....lets start our season now.
 
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