Reform

[georgenorman]

I want to knock on the head this idea that us being in the EU meant it costed us £Billions!

It is a lie. One that was believed by the public but is still a lie. It needs to be corrected if ever we again are going to recognise the value of membership.

Of course we made contributions. Any organisation that does things needs to be funded. It’s whether those contributions represent value for money that really matters.

So what did we get in return? EU funded projects? The benefits that flowed from the single market? Both true. But the biggest were the savings that resulted from subsidiarity. Allowing one set of specialists and regulators to develop standards and methods for all the members, at a fraction of the cost of each having do it themselves.

Measuring that isn’t easy, which is why it’s often overlooked, but we were better off before 2016 than we are today, of that I am certain.

Wisbechian obfuscation of the highest order.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Wisbechian obfuscation of the highest order.

Only the wilfully blind think a straight forward explanation tries to obscure something.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

I want to knock on the head this idea that us being in the EU meant it costed us £Billions!

It is a lie. One that was believed by the public but is still a lie. It needs to be corrected if ever we again are going to recognise the value of membership.

Of course we made contributions. Any organisation that does things needs to be funded. It’s whether those contributions represent value for money that really matters.

So what did we get in return? EU funded projects? The benefits that flowed from the single market? Both true. But the biggest were the savings that resulted from subsidiarity. Allowing one set of specialists and regulators to develop standards and methods for all the members, at a fraction of the cost of each having do it themselves.

Measuring that isn’t easy, which is why it’s often overlooked, but we were better off before 2016 than we are today, of that I am certain.

So it didn't cost over £1 bn a month?

The UK's EU membership fee – Full Fact

In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £9 billion.

fullfact.org

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

So it didn't cost over £1 bn a month?

The UK's EU membership fee – Full Fact

In 2018 the UK government paid £13 billion to the EU budget, and EU spending on the UK was forecast to be £4 billion. So the UK’s ‘net contribution’ was estimated at about £9 billion.

fullfact.org

No.

That’s the contribution, not the cost.

To know the cost/profit you need to also know the value of the benefits. Which is hard to determine and would be subject to a range of opinions. I asked Chat GBT for its opinion. This is what it said:-

“Most independent economic studies concluded that:

• The economic benefits of EU membership (especially via trade and investment) outweighed the direct financial cost.
• The Centre for Economic Performance (LSE) and HM Treasury estimated long-term GDP was higher due to EU membership.
• However, those studies often focused on aggregate national gains, not localised effects.”

 

[Teddy Eagle]

No.

That’s the contribution, not the cost.

To know the cost/profit you need to also know the value of the benefits. Which is hard to determine and would be subject to a range of opinions. I asked Chat GBT for its opinion. This is what it said:-

“Most independent economic studies concluded that:

• The economic benefits of EU membership (especially via trade and investment) outweighed the direct financial cost.
• The Centre for Economic Performance (LSE) and HM Treasury estimated long-term GDP was higher due to EU membership.
• However, those studies often focused on aggregate national gains, not localised effects.”

We were still net contributors as opposed to several members.

EU budget: Who pays most in and who gets most back?

How much are the EU countries paying into and receiving from the EU?

www.bbc.co.uk

 

[Nutmegyeti]

No.

That’s the contribution, not the cost.

To know the cost/profit you need to also know the value of the benefits. Which is hard to determine and would be subject to a range of opinions. I asked Chat GBT for its opinion. This is what it said:-

“Most independent economic studies concluded that:

• The economic benefits of EU membership (especially via trade and investment) outweighed the direct financial cost.
• The Centre for Economic Performance (LSE) and HM Treasury estimated long-term GDP was higher due to EU membership.
• However, those studies often focused on aggregate national gains, not localised effects.”

Well that explains a bit, the rest of us use GPT. I’m assuming the B stands for B*****ks ;-)

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Well that explains a bit, the rest of us use GPT. I’m assuming the B stands for B*****ks ;-)

Can we trust Chat GPT?


AI Overview

While ChatGPT can be a helpful tool, it should not be blindly trusted as a source of factual information. ChatGPT, like other large language models, is prone to "hallucinations," meaning it can generate incorrect, misleading, or biased information. It's crucial to verify any information obtained from ChatGPT with reliable, reputable sources.

 

[georgenorman]

I asked an AI Bot "Does Wisbech speak nonsense" and got:
"Wisbech has experienced a significant increase in its population due to immigration, primarily from Eastern European countries like Poland and Lithuania. This influx has led to both positive and negative consequences. Some sources suggest that the town has a "vibrant culture" due to its diversity, with access to various Eastern European foods and a large Portuguese community. However, other sources highlight tensions and challenges. There are also differing opinions on the impact of migrant workers on the local economy, with some believing they have revived the town center, while others blame them for economic downturn."

 

[Rudi Hedman]

Whilst your objectivity over the populist confidence trickery of Reform and Farage is appreciated it isn’t that long ago that I recall you meeting him at the Party Conference and describing him in effusive terms. It isn’t that long ago that the Tory right were populist themselves and selling Brexit to the gullible.

So if they ever are to be believed again and stand any chance of regaining some influence, let alone power, they need to put clear space between themselves and anything that has even the slightest aroma of those days. Change is indeed needed but it must be radical, accept the past mistakes and set a path which can be believed. The right must be cut adrift.

The most radical of all, but one which would capture the imagination, would be to admit Brexit was a mistake, blame the right for it, and promise a closer relationship with our friends in Europe to be best prepared for the troubled times we live in.

That will probably include more and more Islamic migration into European countries until eventually AFD and other parties address it.

 

[Willo]

I asked an AI Bot "Does Wisbech speak nonsense" and got:
"Wisbech has experienced a significant increase in its population due to immigration, primarily from Eastern European countries like Poland and Lithuania. This influx has led to both positive and negative consequences. Some sources suggest that the town has a "vibrant culture" due to its diversity, with access to various Eastern European foods and a large Portuguese community. However, other sources highlight tensions and challenges. There are also differing opinions on the impact of migrant workers on the local economy, with some believing they have revived the town center, while others blame them for economic downturn."

As for Willo :

"Willo from Holmesdale Online is known for his distinctive writing style—often verbose, occasionally cryptic, and peppered with uncommon vocabulary. Whether it's “rambling farragos of nonsense” or “brevity and pauciloquy,” he certainly doesn’t shy away from colorful phrasing"

I certainly don't shy away from criticising Reform ! Our job is to hold Farage to account and subject him to the kind of scrutiny he has enjoyed not experiencing.

 

[beak]

As or Willo :

"Willo from Holmesdale Online is known for his distinctive writing style—often verbose, occasionally cryptic, and peppered with uncommon vocabulary. Whether it's “rambling farragos of nonsense” or “brevity and pauciloquy,” he certainly doesn’t shy away from colorful phrasing"

I certainly don't shy away from criticising Reform !

Well done Willo old chap your attacks on Reform are working wonders! They are shooting up on an ever increasing trajectory in the opinion polls ,looking for the Tories is a laboriuos task, I do believe they are now seeking re -election.I don't know wether it is due to the lies, funny money printing or going awol on D-Day, possibly the dessertions to Reform or the side stepping by so many former Tory M.P.s. Also the unpopularity of Bad-as-ever three times more unpopular than Sir Keir.They are a real basket case beyond resucitation.

 

[georgenorman]

I asked Who is George Norman on HOL and got:
"Based on the provided sources, the question likely refers to either the fugitive George Norman or a player named George Norman associated with Crystal Palace. The fugitive George Norman was a swindler who evaded authorities for over two decades. The other George Norman is not directly mentioned in the provided content, but there is information about Norman Waite, a Crystal Palace player."

 

[Badger11]

I asked AI why do so many middle class white people favour mass immigration and yet choose to live in the most white areas of the country.

AI responded:

This is known as Mother in Law syndrome. It commonly affects people that claim to have lived in urban multicultural areas and loved their immigrant neighbours. Unfortunately their Mother in Law is ill so to keep the wife happy they have been forced to move to closer to her and it is just a coincidence that is it a nice white middle class area.

Mother in Law syndrome should not be mistaken for Thompson's* disease which mainly affects millionaire celebrities forcing them to travel thousands of miles first class to lecture the population about the latest woke fashion.

* Allen's disease is a variant of this, it causes failed celebrities to break down in tears and apologise on behalf of the public.

 

[Willo]

Well done Willo old chap your attacks on Reform are working wonders! They are shooting up on an ever increasing trajectory in the opinion polls ,looking for the Tories is a laboriuos task, I do believe they are now seeking re -election.I don't know wether it is due to the lies, funny money printing or going awol on D-Day, possibly the dessertions to Reform or the side stepping by so many former Tory M.P.s. Also the unpopularity of Bad-as-ever three times more unpopular than Sir Keir.They are a real basket case beyond resucitation.

Reform are only riding the crest of a wave on account of a deeply unpopular Government and a Conservative Party who suffered a humiliating defeat at the General Election and have to regain the trust of the electorate. The election is some 4 years ago and a "Week is a long time in politics".

Nigel Farage and Co wheel out populist policies, without any thought about how they can be delivered or indeed funded.Fantasy economics.

 

[georgenorman]

Reform are only riding the crest of a wave on account of a deeply unpopular Government and a Conservative Party who suffered a humiliating defeat at the General Election and have to regain the trust of the electorate. The election is some 4 years ago and a "Week is a long time in politics".

Nigel Farage and Co wheel out populist policies, without any thought about how they can be delivered or indeed funded.Fantasy economics.

Reform are doing well because the electorate can see very little difference in the general outlook and approach of Labour and Conservative. As for funds, both major parties have wasted vast sums of money on mad schemes in the first place, exacerbated by unbelievable levels of incompetence in implementing said schemes.

 

[beak]

Reform are only riding the crest of a wave on account of a deeply unpopular Government and a Conservative Party who suffered a humiliating defeat at the General Election and have to regain the trust of the electorate. The election is some 4 years ago and a "Week is a long time in politics".

Nigel Farage and Co wheel out populist policies, without any thought about how they can be delivered or indeed funded.Fantasy economics.

You did very well a future politician in the making masterly avoiding all of the issues I raised. The Tories are now a Shakesperean tragi-comedy for modern times outdoing Laurel and Hady for their ineptitude. Look down occassionally because the rug is being assuredly pulled from undeneath the Tories you are currently whistling in the dark.

 

[Willo]

Reform are doing well because the electorate can see very little difference in the general outlook and approach of Labour and Conservative. As for funds, both major parties have wasted vast sums of money on mad schemes in the first place, exacerbated by unbelievable levels of incompetence in implementing said schemes.

Reform are riding high as at the present time the electorate are not enamoured with both Labour and the Conservatives !
Along comes Farage with all his PR bluster, tapping into the 'Mood music',trying to be all things to all people, with a plethora of announcements and no thinking behind how Reform are going to fund any of it. Farage could not provide any idea of cost when quizzed by Laura Kuenssberg apropos their water nationalisation proposals and he uttered the words "No Idea" SIX times regarding Reform's mayor in Stevenage.
He will play whatever tune he thinks appeals to the people he’s playing the tune too, but that’s not serious grown-up politics.

 

[Willo]

You did very well a future politician in the making masterly avoiding all of the issues I raised. The Tories are now a Shakesperean tragi-comedy for modern times outdoing Laurel and Hady for their ineptitude. Look down occassionally because the rug is being assuredly pulled from undeneath the Tories you are currently whistling in the dark.

With respect I do not accept some of the 'Charges' you raised and was not minded to afford them the oxygen of publicity. It really is a deflection and distraction from a thread titled 'Reform' and I am content to concentrate my efforts on lambasting Reform and their illiterate and fantasy economics.

 

[ASCPFC]

I asked Who is George Norman on HOL and got:
"Based on the provided sources, the question likely refers to either the fugitive George Norman or a player named George Norman associated with Crystal Palace. The fugitive George Norman was a swindler who evaded authorities for over two decades. The other George Norman is not directly mentioned in the provided content, but there is information about Norman Waite, a Crystal Palace player."

I thought you were Eze.

 

[Eagleman13]

Reform are riding high as at the present time the electorate are not enamoured with both Labour and the Conservatives !
Along comes Farage with all his PR bluster, tapping into the 'Mood music',trying to be all things to all people, with a plethora of announcements and no thinking behind how Reform are going to fund any of it. Farage could not provide any idea of cost when quizzed by Laura Kuenssberg apropos their water nationalisation proposals and he uttered the words "No Idea" SIX times regarding Reform's mayor in Stevenage.
He will play whatever tune he thinks appeals to the people he’s playing the tune too, but that’s not serious grown-up politics.

It seems to me Willo, you(Cons) are running scared of Farage, same as Lab. It also seems to me, that he's doing all the things you wanted to do, but, failed miserably. Relying on your 'blue-Rinse' brigade etc to vote for the Cons has failed, as you have alluded to. Yes, Farage may be all 'bluster' as you call it, but, he has galvanised the voters, whereas the Cons/Lab are just going along as if nothing has happened.

Still, politics is a funny beast, everyone slags off everyone else & nothing gets done. there may be 4 years to go, but, it's going to take a lot longer for the Cons to become a credible party again. Lab will get voted out, no matter how many immigrants they give votes to. Not a dig at you personally, just an observation.