Reform

[Teddy Eagle]

It may surprise you to know that I agree with this; but I would fine heavily first before further seeking to place any greater burden on our prisons.

However, we need legislation to ensure assets held in the names of wives, elderly relatives etc. can be seized and sold to pay fines. Black economy employers who work closely with the people smugglers need to know that a consequence of them engaging illegals is they and their families ending up penniless and on the street.

No greater shame. A more effective deterrent.

It's a bit Draconian to turf a family out because they're related to a wrong 'un. Where do you draw the line? Does everyone with a criminal in their line get made homeless?

 

[HKOwen]

'Out on the hustings':-

Owen Jones encounters a typical reform voter:-

Is that a fact?

🙂🙂

Owen " Mr Hissy Fit " Jones, what a joke trying to scrape a living from his Corbynista views

The guy is an idiot, it's only 25%

Reminds me of the woman who was convinced Corbyn had won the Nobel Peace Prize

 

[silvertop]

It's a bit Draconian to turf a family out because they're related to a wrong 'un. Where do you draw the line? Does everyone with a criminal in their line get made homeless?

Ha, from the communities I have in mind, they would never be without a roof. But they would be without any community standing; and that operates as a far more effective deterrent than prison.

BTW I wish Reform would stop proposing forceful repatriation. It's a false promise. All the recipient countries will do is send them back on the return flight. If nothing else, it will cost us a fortune in wasted flight tickets, and the airlines won't stand for it.

Military planes? Do you honestly think Pakistan, Afghanistan et al will allow them to land?

Please tell me how you think this can be safely achieved? It is as hair brained an idea as the Royal Marines fighting French Marines and/or the Gendarmes to drop boat people back on French beaches.

Essentially the first desperate, ill thought through idea that pops into their heads with the only intent to regain support and distract from their many errors.

Once in power, quietly shelved (like Rwanda).

 

[silvertop]

Do you support Israel's right to exist?

Of course. Hence the clear wording that I am not anti Zionist.

Just this particular Lecud government.

 

[silvertop]

It's a bit Draconian to turf a family out because they're related to a wrong 'un. Where do you draw the line? Does everyone with a criminal in their line get made homeless?

As an aside and tangentially related, you appear to be on the side of Israel good/Palestine bad.

Where do you stand on Israel demolishing the family homes of convicted terrorists?

A little trick they learned from us.

 

[Spiderman]

Ha, from the communities I have in mind, they would never be without a roof. But they would be without any community standing; and that operates as a far more effective deterrent than prison.

BTW I wish Reform would stop proposing forceful repatriation. It's a false promise. All the recipient countries will do is send them back on the return flight. If nothing else, it will cost us a fortune in wasted flight tickets, and the airlines won't stand for it.

Military planes? Do you honestly think Pakistan, Afghanistan et al will allow them to land?

Please tell me how you think this can be safely achieved? It is as hair brained an idea as the Royal Marines fighting French Marines and/or the Gendarmes to drop boat people back on French beaches.

Essentially the first desperate, ill thought through idea that pops into their heads with the only intent to regain support and distract from their many errors.

Once in power, quietly shelved (like Rwanda).

I agree to a certain extent. However, a commercial airline would not carry a deportee without documentation to confirm they would be acceptable at the other end. HO really don’t have that much clout with airlines ( they should but they rarely force the airlines hand). There is also the issue that if the planes captain refuses to carry a passenger, they will be offloaded and nothing HO can do about it.
If you withdrew Foreign aid and stop issuing visas, you watch them allow military planes to land. 😂 Plenty of airforce bases in Pakistan so wouldn’t need to use International airports.
I doubt Reform will get into power but if they did, I suspect they will not backtrack on this. If there is a political will there are ways and means

 

[Teddy Eagle]

As an aside and tangentially related, you appear to be on the side of Israel good/Palestine bad.

Where do you stand on Israel demolishing the family homes of convicted terrorists?

A little trick they learned from us.

As far as I'm aware I've never said anything about either Israel or Palestine so the relevance escapes me.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I tend to stay well clear when Wisbech is in active debate with anyone, but I would like to intervene on the first two points if I may.

The starting point is my view on Gaza. Oct 7 was an atrocity that received no support on here. There are those posters of dimmer mind who claim that any poster who criticized Israel's actions must support the Hamas atrocity. I assume you are of broader mind not to be caught up in that binary simplicity.

Thus, Israel were right to retaliate and seek to secure their border. They were wrong to retaliate to the extent they have and continue to. And to regularly argue that Hamas are to blame for the tens of thousands of innocent collateral deaths as Hamas use them as human shields supports the use of violence to shoot the "shields" out of the way. It also ignores the active atrocities committed by the IDF, not all of which they have managed to suppress despite their best efforts to keep the press out.

Thus, I am criticizing Israel. I am not criticizing Jews. My view is anti this particular government; not the entirety of Judaism or even Zionism.

However, where your argument falls short is my expressed view, or peaceful march, or article in a newspaper is not a petrol bomb on a synagogue. Who has advocated that on here? Your point is not remotely analogous. Your attack on some random Muslim because of the actions of Iran has only the slightest connection with your view on Iran. Your victim is likely to be of Pakistani extraction - wrong country and wrong side of the Islamic divide. Similarly, the increasing antisemitic attacks by British Muslims on Jews in recent years has little real connection with Israel's acts. Protesting outside their embassy and marches carrying anti Israel placards is directly connected. Beating up some random Jew is not. Again, who is supporting that on here?

Your second point is better but I suspect it has something to do with expectation. One demands more from a supposedly western democracy than one does from proscribed terrorists who lucked out in a protest vote 20 years ago but who have long since lost their mandate. If anything, negative stories about Hamas like stealing aid or hiding under hospitals is widely reported and condemned. After all, how else would you know about it? The problem is that much of the negative news was about Israel as they were seeking to bomb millions of Gazans away from their border and existence.

And in terms of the lack of condemnation from Jews, I have tried a few times to discuss this with Jews but they see no further than Oct 7. When asked about the tens of thousands of Gazans killed, they say that is "bullsh1t" and the point is closed down with the clear message that you better not step forward any further. This from a people whose whole identity is informed by millennia of persecution; and where much of its diaspora is surrounded and outnumbered by Muslims. It is surprising they do not call out their effective representatives with a "Not in my name" protest.

You poor thing.

 

[Spindle]

'Out on the hustings':-

Owen Jones encounters a typical reform voter:-

Is that a fact?

🙂🙂

I'd say that's true. The leftist stupidity is in that they think it's referring to Britain, too thick to understand the point without getting triggered.

When you consider that there are nearly 1 billion muslim women in the World and we have about 2 million in the UK (far too many) then that's a tiny percentage. Considering that in many muslim nations the women are prevented from attending school just how many do you think are going to be able to learn English from their 3rd World villages? There are 24 million women in Afghanistan, 15 in Saudi, 60 million in Egypt, 78 in Bangladesh, 115 in Pakistan and even 100 million in India. Plus all of the other nations they've taken over. - do you think that they are going to be fluent in English in these countries? We have 1 in 5 who can't even speak our language who fkin well live here!

Owen Jones is a complete moron, and a liar, as are you.

The only thing the guy was wrong about is that Owen Jones won't ever have a daughter to be raped, because he's gay, and would be killed by the very people he defends.

 

[Spiderman]

Owen " Mr Hissy Fit " Jones, what a joke trying to scrape a living from his Corbynista views

The guy is an idiot, it's only 25%

Reminds me of the woman who was convinced Corbyn had won the Nobel Peace Prize

Funny how he didn’t dispute the IQ quote.

 

[Living In Hope]

I tend to stay well clear when Wisbech is in active debate with anyone, but I would like to intervene on the first two points if I may.

The starting point is my view on Gaza. Oct 7 was an atrocity that received no support on here. There are those posters of dimmer mind who claim that any poster who criticized Israel's actions must support the Hamas atrocity. I assume you are of broader mind not to be caught up in that binary simplicity.

Thus, Israel were right to retaliate and seek to secure their border. They were wrong to retaliate to the extent they have and continue to. And to regularly argue that Hamas are to blame for the tens of thousands of innocent collateral deaths as Hamas use them as human shields supports the use of violence to shoot the "shields" out of the way. It also ignores the active atrocities committed by the IDF, not all of which they have managed to suppress despite their best efforts to keep the press out.

Thus, I am criticizing Israel. I am not criticizing Jews. My view is anti this particular government; not the entirety of Judaism or even Zionism.

However, where your argument falls short is my expressed view, or peaceful march, or article in a newspaper is not a petrol bomb on a synagogue. Who has advocated that on here? Your point is not remotely analogous. Your attack on some random Muslim because of the actions of Iran has only the slightest connection with your view on Iran. Your victim is likely to be of Pakistani extraction - wrong country and wrong side of the Islamic divide. Similarly, the increasing antisemitic attacks by British Muslims on Jews in recent years has little real connection with Israel's acts. Protesting outside their embassy and marches carrying anti Israel placards is directly connected. Beating up some random Jew is not. Again, who is supporting that on here?

Your second point is better but I suspect it has something to do with expectation. One demands more from a supposedly western democracy than one does from proscribed terrorists who lucked out in a protest vote 20 years ago but who have long since lost their mandate. If anything, negative stories about Hamas like stealing aid or hiding under hospitals is widely reported and condemned. After all, how else would you know about it? The problem is that much of the negative news was about Israel as they were seeking to bomb millions of Gazans away from their border and existence.

And in terms of the lack of condemnation from Jews, I have tried a few times to discuss this with Jews but they see no further than Oct 7. When asked about the tens of thousands of Gazans killed, they say that is "bullsh1t" and the point is closed down with the clear message that you better not step forward any further. This from a people whose whole identity is informed by millennia of persecution; and where much of its diaspora is surrounded and outnumbered by Muslims. It is surprising they do not call out their effective representatives with a "Not in my name" protest.

I think some context has been lost here Silvertop.

Without revisiting everything, this discussion began with Wisbech and myself disagreeing about my view that Hope Not Hate is a disingenuous organisation pushing a left wing agenda. I checked their website again and out of their 4 banners, two were about Reform, and the other were also anti right wing, but nothing on anti-semitism, which I asserted was the most prevalent and violent hatred in the UK.

He disagreed about anti-semitism, but I think we both acknowledged that whilst the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes slightly exceeds the number of anti-semitic hate crimes, if you take into account relative populations then you are almost 10 times as likely to suffer a hate crime in the UK as a Jew than as a Muslim. This is hate crime, not people protesting against the Israeli government.

So the first point you are objecting to was because Wisbech suggested some of the anti-semitic hate crimes recorded in the UK were misconstrued on the basis they were “motivated by opposition to the Israeli government, not to Jewish people.” Hence I pointed out that this was equivalent to claiming that an attack on a Muslim in the UK was motivated by opposition to the Iranian regime. I think that is logical and that he should not be seeking to diminish the anti-semitism statistics in this way.

I am not sure where you have got the idea that I have suggested a peaceful protest against the Israeli government (which I would absolutely not classify as anti-semitic) was equivalent to a petrol bomb at a mosque / synagogue. I have not.

You state “Your victim is likely to be of Pakistani extraction - wrong country and wrong side of the Islamic divide. Similarly, the increasing antisemitic attacks by British Muslims on Jews in recent years has little real connection with Israel's acts.” So I think we are in complete agreement. You cannot justify an attack on a Jew in the UK as disapproval of the Israeli government, in the same way that you cannot justify an attack on a Muslim as disapproval of the Iranian (or Pakistani) government.

I acknowledge your point about the lack of “Not In My Name” protests by the Jewish community, but the point I was making to Wisbech was that the visible Muslim reaction to the Hamas atrocities, which after all sparked the assault on Gaza, was not only a lack of “Not In My Name” protests, but in many quarters demonstrations against the victims of these atrocities. Why then call out the Jews for not being more vociferous, but not the Muslims ?

I think we are probably less far apart than it might at first appear though.

 

[silvertop]

As far as I'm aware I've never said anything about either Israel or Palestine so the relevance escapes me.

Ha, naughty me.

There is usually a chorus of comment going one way with a few easily identifiable detractors going the other, so I just assumed you were in the chorus.

 

[silvertop]

I think some context has been lost here Silvertop.

Without revisiting everything, this discussion began with Wisbech and myself disagreeing about my view that Hope Not Hate is a disingenuous organisation pushing a left wing agenda. I checked their website again and out of their 4 banners, two were about Reform, and the other were also anti right wing, but nothing on anti-semitism, which I asserted was the most prevalent and violent hatred in the UK.

He disagreed about anti-semitism, but I think we both acknowledged that whilst the number of anti-Muslim hate crimes slightly exceeds the number of anti-semitic hate crimes, if you take into account relative populations then you are almost 10 times as likely to suffer a hate crime in the UK as a Jew than as a Muslim. This is hate crime, not people protesting against the Israeli government.

So the first point you are objecting to was because Wisbech suggested some of the anti-semitic hate crimes recorded in the UK were misconstrued on the basis they were “motivated by opposition to the Israeli government, not to Jewish people.” Hence I pointed out that this was equivalent to claiming that an attack on a Muslim in the UK was motivated by opposition to the Iranian regime. I think that is logical and that he should not be seeking to diminish the anti-semitism statistics in this way.

I am not sure where you have got the idea that I have suggested a peaceful protest against the Israeli government (which I would absolutely not classify as anti-semitic) was equivalent to a petrol bomb at a mosque / synagogue. I have not.

You state “Your victim is likely to be of Pakistani extraction - wrong country and wrong side of the Islamic divide. Similarly, the increasing antisemitic attacks by British Muslims on Jews in recent years has little real connection with Israel's acts.” So I think we are in complete agreement. You cannot justify an attack on a Jew in the UK as disapproval of the Israeli government, in the same way that you cannot justify an attack on a Muslim as disapproval of the Iranian (or Pakistani) government.

I acknowledge your point about the lack of “Not In My Name” protests by the Jewish community, but the point I was making to Wisbech was that the visible Muslim reaction to the Hamas atrocities, which after all sparked the assault on Gaza, was not only a lack of “Not In My Name” protests, but in many quarters demonstrations against the victims of these atrocities. Why then call out the Jews for not being more vociferous, but not the Muslims ?

I think we are probably less far apart than it might at first appear though.

Yes. I am going to go one step further and say something you probably won't like.

If you sat down and had a beer with Wisbech, you would probably agree a whole lot more than you realise.

But that might just be the beer talking. 🙂

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Ha, naughty me.

There is usually a chorus of comment going one way with a few easily identifiable detractors going the other, so I just assumed you were in the chorus.

Fair enough.

 

[Spindle]

Yes. I am going to go one step further and say something you probably won't like.

If you sat down and had a beer with Wisbech, you would probably agree a whole lot more than you realise.

But that might just be the beer talking. 🙂

So he's a troll then, confirmed 👍

 

[cryrst]

Yes. I am going to go one step further and say something you probably won't like.

If you sat down and had a beer with Wisbech, you would probably agree a whole lot more than you realise.

But that might just be the beer talking. 🙂

Only if racist dave was included.
That would be a proper sesh

 

[Living In Hope]

Yes. I am going to go one step further and say something you probably won't like.

If you sat down and had a beer with Wisbech, you would probably agree a whole lot more than you realise.

But that might just be the beer talking. 🙂

🤣 Actually I do like it and I think you are right - but enjoy the beer anyway !

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Thank you for a considered and non-aggressive response. I will focus partly a little on what we agree on and partly what we don't agree on. But I must start by saying that I believe it is not right to ignore relative population sizes. The statistics show that as a Jew in the UK you are almost 10 times as likely to suffer a hate incident than as a Muslim. I think we agree on that fact, but I also acknowledge that because the Muslim population vastly exceeds the Jewish one, the total number of incidents is is slightly more against Muslims because there are around 13 times as many Muslims in the UK as Jews.

I agree with you that all such incidents are reprehensible and unacceptable whoever the victim. I also agree that criticism of the Israeli government and its actions does not represent anti-semitism.

However, without arguing about every point, there are some key points with which I vehemently disagree.

Firstly you say that some of the incidents are motivated by opposition to the Israeli government so may not strictly be anti-semitic. By logical extension if I go and attack a Muslim because the ultra-Islamic regime of Iran murdered tens of thousands of its citizens who objected to its ideology, then that may not strictly be an Islamophobic attack, but a protest against the government of Iran.

Secondly you say that our Jewish community should be more forthright in their condemnation of the Israeli government. What I personally witnessed after the atrocity of 7th October 2023, which sparked / gave licence to the Israeli assault on Hamas / Gaza, was that even before there was any response from Israel, there were large numbers of Muslims out on our streets demonstrating against Israel. The Muslim response to this terrorist atrocity was to rise up against the victims, not to be forthright in their condemnation of this disgusting action perpetrated by a government explicitly committed to genocide against Israel. Why focus on the lack of Jewish criticism of the Israeli government, rather than the lack of Muslim criticism of Hamas and 7th October ? There have been many manifestations of support by Muslims for Hamas's behaviour, none that I have seen by Jews in favour of the Israeli government.

Lastly, and I know you will never agree with this, but for you to claim that Reform is a legitimate target for "anti-hate" activists is just incomprehensible to me, and part of a narrative peddled by the left against Reform, because that is easier than debating the issues. They are a right wing (but not far right) party, and far less extreme in their views than, for example, the Green Party. Sure I have no doubt that there are Reform politicians who can correctly be accused of hatred, just as there are Labour politicians who can be. But regarding their view on immigration, which I assume is where your view comes from, the basic premises that immigration has been excessive and sometimes inappropriate, and that illegal immigration from safe countries must be dealt with aggressively, do not represent hate. In my opinion they represent common sense.

I am glad we agree on many things. Of which there are more you don’t mention. I would criticise anyone, whatever their background, who failed to condemn the actions of Hamas on Oct 7, let alone celebrate it. I also agree that such criticism is not Islamophobic but simple objections to an awful attack. Whataboutery rarely helps solve problems though. Better to condemn them all. That said the Muslim diaspora still contains fundamentalist elements unwilling to submit to the modern world. Whilst there are also orthodox Jewish sects who continue to follow divine law, they do so within the context of modern society. They don’t fight it. They have had centuries to adapt and accept. Each is at a different point in their journey to life within a secular society.

Reform are a fraud. Every populist party is. Describing them as just right suits some. That’s what happens with populists. They serve up things intended to be popular. Others looking at them who don’t see, let alone share, any of their “values” see them differently.

They are a bag of wind. Nothing of substance behind them and no real idea of how to approach government.

Everyone wants to eliminate illegal immigration. Most see the need for controlled legal immigration. Only Reform (and Restore, who are even worse) propose ideas they know full well are unworkable. In the expectation they will be popular!

 

[cryrst]

I am glad we agree on many things. Of which there are more you don’t mention. I would criticise anyone, whatever their background, who failed to condemn the actions of Hamas on Oct 7, let alone celebrate it. I also agree that such criticism is not Islamophobic but simple objections to an awful attack. Whataboutery rarely helps solve problems though. Better to condemn them all. That said the Muslim diaspora still contains fundamentalist elements unwilling to submit to the modern world. Whilst there are also orthodox Jewish sects who continue to follow divine law, they do so within the context of modern society. They don’t fight it. They have had centuries to adapt and accept. Each is at a different point in their journey to life within a secular society.

Reform are a fraud. Every populist party is. Describing them as just right suits some. That’s what happens with populists. They serve up things intended to be popular. Others looking at them who don’t see, let alone share, any of their “values” see them differently.

They are a bag of wind. Nothing of substance behind them and no real idea of how to approach government.

Everyone wants to eliminate illegal immigration. Most see the need for controlled legal immigration. Only Reform (and Restore, who are even worse) propose ideas they know full well are unworkable. In the expectation they will be popular!

You are incorrect in the assumption that reform restore are the new nazis as they say things that are out there. Even you cannot actually think they could or will do what they say. They cannot and will not but there is a starting point and all proposals are watered down when it comes to implementing them. Albeit there are too many coming in and that has to stop.

 

[Spiderman]

I am glad we agree on many things. Of which there are more you don’t mention. I would criticise anyone, whatever their background, who failed to condemn the actions of Hamas on Oct 7, let alone celebrate it. I also agree that such criticism is not Islamophobic but simple objections to an awful attack. Whataboutery rarely helps solve problems though. Better to condemn them all. That said the Muslim diaspora still contains fundamentalist elements unwilling to submit to the modern world. Whilst there are also orthodox Jewish sects who continue to follow divine law, they do so within the context of modern society. They don’t fight it. They have had centuries to adapt and accept. Each is at a different point in their journey to life within a secular society.

Reform are a fraud. Every populist party is. Describing them as just right suits some. That’s what happens with populists. They serve up things intended to be popular. Others looking at them who don’t see, let alone share, any of their “values” see them differently.

They are a bag of wind. Nothing of substance behind them and no real idea of how to approach government.

Everyone wants to eliminate illegal immigration. Most see the need for controlled legal immigration. Only Reform (and Restore, who are even worse) propose ideas they know full well are unworkable. In the expectation they will be popular!

I think you have confused them with the Green Party! Now Polanski is a fraud