Palace v Ipswich Match Thread

[park the bus]

We conceded three goals to a newly promoted team at home! By any measure that’s terrible from a defensive point of view. The fact it looked a bit more solid just means it’s been incredibly bad up to this point. The most all over the place defensively we’ve looked since de Boer.

Those of us calling for four at the back aren’t clueless we are just using the evidence of our own eyes of what is happening. We are the worst defence in the division. The only really good side we’ve played is Man City yet we’ve conceded 11 goals in 4 matches.

With respect I’d suggest those saying we just carry on as we are might be the ones ignoring the evidence.

I'm not that bothered by the label a system is given, the important thing is that it functions efficiently. The primary function of the defence, simply put, is to stop the opposition from scoring. So far this season the system used by Sage has failed on all accounts, and therefore must come under serious scrutiny.

 

[est1905]

The back four is pretty simple. Wider in possession, narrower out of possession, stay in a line, push up as a unit, use the offiside trap (the more complex part). It's no where near as complicated as what we're doing now. Which I could fully explain, but would take a couple of pages.
To put it briefly, we're going wide in possession, putting space between the back three and the two wingers push on. We're seeing very few offsides as we're not running a trap. Out of possession it's supposed to be a flatter five - but that isn't happening. We're caught out in transition with the ball in behind at the flanks for nearly every goal.
Add in our inability to press and there are our goals conceded.
You could say our attack, even with limited options is going ok.
Midfield and defence aren't. Both caught out in transition every few minutes. Hence, a chance for the opposition loads of times per match.

I have two family members and a close friend that have played or currently play professionally. You are talking nonsense. All three have regularly informed me that anyone that thinks you can simply switch system without a considerable amount of work/practice on the training ground thinks they understand football but dont.

 

[est1905]

The international break is imminent and should give Sage a spell to get the defence up to speed.
Management is a strange business - last year Emery at Villa was rightly praised now they have 1 point from 12 after having had the team gutted. De Zerbi has 2 at Tottenham after spending about £300,000,000.

Completely agree. Its strange how even the nuetrals make excuses for some clubs yet whenever we have issues, even when there are valid reasons, our own fans go into meltdown.
The Int break is definitely a good opportunity to work on the defence as well as the best personel to implement it. I will however put my mortgage on the fact that Sage will not be switchinmg to a flat back 4

 

[park the bus]

I have two family members and a close friend that have played or currently play professionally. You are talking nonsense. All three have regularly informed me that anyone that thinks you can simply switch system without a considerable amount of work/practice on the training ground thinks they understand football but dont.

I guess this explains why Disasi was playing as a right sided midfielder instead of central defence when he committed the red card offence. He was obviously confused as to Sage's instructions and the change of system compared to what he was used to at Chelsea.

 

[est1905]

But you agree that the current system is a complete defensive shambles though right? So if it isn’t working then why wouldn’t you change it?

To be worse a back four would have to be conceding four goals a game. Right now we are conceding almost three.

I do agree on that. 100%. Unfortunately the quickest way to solve it is to work on the template we have been using for the last 3 years. I do not pretend to be an expert on defensive systems but as previously mentioned, I know three people that are. They are unanimous in their belief that it cannot be done successfully over night. It would require long term retraing of the whole squad over a number of weeks to get it working like a well oiled machin. that is time we do not have.

 

[est1905]

Because we are only a couple of weeks into integrating a new system. We've fixed the issue of not being able to score, now we need to fix the issue of conceding too many/re-addressing the balance.

We played well on Sat until the sending off. We weren't wide open like we had been against Everton and City. Even Boro.

Being objective, it was actually the most solid we've looked. Enciso was quiet, Benitez hardly had anything to do. And with 10 men, I'm not sure they had so much as an attack in the 2nd half until their goal. It was all us.

Most people calling for 4 at the back, have zero idea what they are talking about and if it would help. they are just calling for change. Which of course we could do.

Or we could knuckle down to fix the issues we have, with the plan thats in place.

Common Sense? What are you doing on here?

 

[est1905]

Training systems are entirely tailored to your next opponent. These are premier league players, the general attitude is, you're already the best in the world, you're expected to do, pretty much anything a manager asks but I agree with the rest, he's not going to change the system now but he needs to work on us defensively.

Another myth. Very few managers work that way. As Glasner used to say, if we believe in what we are doing and we do it right we believe we can beat anyone so why change the way we play?

 

[park the bus]

I do agree on that. 100%. Unfortunately the quickest way to solve it is to work on the template we have been using for the last 3 years. I do not pretend to be an expert on defensive systems but as previously mentioned, I know three people that are. They are unanimous in their belief that it cannot be done successfully over night. It would require long term retraing of the whole squad over a number of weeks to get it working like a well oiled machin. that is time we do not have.

I agree, which is why I write that time is of the essence. It's clear Sage took over a messy situation and has been tasked with finding solutions. He could start by examining the relationship between defence and midfield and why our opponents create chances with ease. Why is that exactly?

 

[JHB]

I do agree on that. 100%. Unfortunately the quickest way to solve it is to work on the template we have been using for the last 3 years. I do not pretend to be an expert on defensive systems but as previously mentioned, I know three people that are. They are unanimous in their belief that it cannot be done successfully over night. It would require long term retraing of the whole squad over a number of weeks to get it working like a well oiled machin. that is time we do not have.

I am sure you can’t just change over night but equally you can’t persist with something that doesn’t work. There is no evidence we are getting any better defensively or Sage had any idea what he is doing defensively. The fact he keeps chopping and changing the back three tells you that he doesn’t really know what to do.

Ironically if changing is hard and takes time then you have to question why Sage has changed to high press system (in theory because we aren’t exactly winning possession high up) when he had little time with the first team squad and it is a notoriously difficult system to implement. It took Klopp two seasons to get it right and both he and his players were light years ahead of Sage and his.

 

[rikz]

Another myth. Very few managers work that way. As Glasner used to say, if we believe in what we are doing and we do it right we believe we can beat anyone so why change the way we play?

Nearly every interview ive seen with pros, ex pros and managers, when talking about training, all say they do very little to none on their own game and the whole week is entirely about their opposition. Which is why you always hear of players staying behind for shooting practice, free kicks etc if they want to improve their own game they do it in their own time.

You don't genuinely belive an international, premier league defender, could turn around to a manager and say I can't play in a back 4, im not used to that system. do you ?

 

[OneStevePerrin]

I agree, which is why I write that time is of the essence. It's clear Sage took over a messy situation and has been tasked with finding solutions. He could start by examining the relationship between defence and midfield and why our opponents create chances with ease. Why is that exactly?

One instant change would be in allowing Wharton to play his normal way in protecting the defence and creating chances up front. At present Wharton is all over the place and Timber doesn’t appear to be in cohesion with him. Awful again yesterday and should never of been made captain? Yes Timber is looking better but to the detriment of Wharton. They just aren’t working together. Perhaps a middle 3 of Hughes, Wharton and Timber would suit and not play two number 10’s. Until that middle unit is sorted we will continue letting in goals and will end up fighting for survival in my opinion?

 

[ASCPFC]

I have two family members and a close friend that have played or currently play professionally. You are talking nonsense. All three have regularly informed me that anyone that thinks you can simply switch system without a considerable amount of work/practice on the training ground thinks they understand football but dont.

I'm a qualified coach and have been for years, although I gave up when my son stopped being bothered. Also played two league games and some non league if that's enough.
Nonsense? Yes, a back four is really hard. It's only been the way football has been generally played for fifty years.
Yes, I know it takes some changing. I also know that sometimes the changes work quickly and well. Sometimes they don't.
I'd say we could try it in a couple of weeks time and it wouldn't be that major of a change. When we use Kamada there is no width. He's already playing as that advanced midfielder. We have the two holding ones. We're swapping sides up front and putting crosses in - hardly a big deal - still the three up front.
You want to have a think a moment that a narrower four without the bombing wingers is really that hard? As I said, hardest is the trap, but we'd also be already set up better with the four. A narrow, low four out of possession against direct and better sides. Get a bit higher and push up with the lesser teams - with the danger of the long ball. Which is relatively rare these days anyway.
It's all academic anyway as I'm pretty sure we seem to have to have a three.

What bothers me the most is that we should have about 7 players back in defence. That should outnumber anybody except for maybe Man City. But we just leak goals. That's pretty ridiculous when you think about it.

It was already happening last season, it's now exacerbated by the new trying to get it upfield quicker. And our press is not working. If it's not going to work, we have to defend deeper and narrower and close the space. I don't think our players are too bad in one one duels. We should, should be caught out less.
Now, whether that could have the knock on effect of quieting us down in attack I don't know. What I do know however is get defence sorted out first when you're not doing well. Trying to outscore the opposition is great fun, better to watch but ultimately unsustainable. Because it's the cliche of the defence that keeps you up. Just as it has us for the entire time we've been in the Premier League.

 

[park the bus]

One instant change would be in allowing Wharton to play his normal way in protecting the defence and creating chances up front. At present Wharton is all over the place and Timber doesn’t appear to be in cohesion with him. Awful again yesterday and should never of been made captain? Yes Timber is looking better but to the detriment of Wharton. They just aren’t working together. Perhaps a middle 3 of Hughes, Wharton and Timber would suit and not play two number 10’s. Until that middle unit is sorted we will continue letting in goals and will end up fighting for survival in my opinion?

I totally agree and I have commented many times here on the midfield and how it is the most important part of the pitch and why is it that we don't have any balance there? The rot with the current system set in at least midway through last season, our home form was abysmal and the same system has carried over into Sage's reign with the same results. No real surprise there, but now he is playing Wharton in a role that doesn't suit him as well as trying to incorporate the new guy who seems on a totally different wavelength - no fault of his, he's doing what is asked of him but the whole thing doesn't appear to be coming together. Early days I know, but really time isn't on Sage's side.