Israel v Hamas

silvertop said:
How are you able to clearly distinguish between someone caring and posting they care, and self-serving virtue signaling?

Something of a thin line, no?

Some may argue that those who post so vociferously in favour if Israel's actions are apologists for child murder, but they are wrong. There are many common traits across the political spectrum and one is an unambiguous dislike of the killing of children. However, I do think they are blinded to it or somehow feel able to discount it as perhaps a worthwhile price to pay in order to back Israel as an island of western values in a sea of barbarity. That is where they and I divide.

Btw, the occupation may have turned very nasty, probably around the time the Democrats return to power and Israel's rug is pulled. I can't predict how that will end.
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Are your posts driven by your faith?
 
CPFCSaturn said:
So just to be clear, you don’t care about the victims of October 7th..?

And your reasoned, logical position is that in order for you to argue against the ‘evil’ of the left, you have to unconditionally support a state which is killing and starving tens of thousands of civilians, including a huge number of children.

Good thing you know where the real evil lies. Moral compass is working perfectly.
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Go on where are you getting the numbers ?
 
CPFCSaturn said:
I understand you made a woeful point, contradicted yourself, and then moved the goalposts to try and suggest you didn't, but that's ok - it happens to the best of us.

The idea that enjoyment of the freedoms of a Western society is conditional on supporting Israel's genocide is just a nonsense, as is the idea that our 'survival' is dependent on the starvation of children - everyone except brainwashed Zionists sees this guff for what it is.

I tend not engage with questions which are very obviously designed to divert and distract, like speculating on moral outlooks from a previous century or hypothesising about wars which don't exist - I understand your position has become more and more untenable and you've had to pivot and look for new ways to do anything but talk about Israel and Gaza, but I don't have to engage with such transparently silly games.

You've swerved plenty of questions of your own.
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Nobody claimed that enjoying Western freedoms is "conditional" on supporting any country. But it is fair to question why some are obsessed with only one conflict, to the exclusion of others just as brutal, often worse.

You don't want to discuss historical points because it's inconvenient to your argument. If you're so confident of your position, you would welcome scrutiny.

Answer this: why does the outrage evaporate when children starve in Yemen, or when ethnic cleansing occurs in Syria, Myanmar, or Sudan? Or does moral clarity only exist when Israel is involved?

You have previously stated you don't believe Kier Starmer is left wing, which indicates that you're a radical left Corbynista. As for morals, just admit you follow an ideology that leaves morality behind. So it's no surprise you are anti-West and pick the side of Britain's enemies.
 
silvertop said:
Firstly, so you do care about the lives of people thousands of miles away.

Secondly, those jews you met were clearly not gentiles.

Thirdly, why am I "leftist"? This is a term used by many on here as an easy attack on anyone you disagree with. He can argue for himself, but take Wisbech (please!). It doesn't seem to matter that he is in his 70s and has voted Tory in all but one election but out comes the "lefty" slur every time he says anything that is not what you say.

For me, I am "right" on some things (e.g. I voted Remain) and "left" on others ( e.g. I don't like the IDF bombing and starving non combatant communities by way of ethnic cleansing); but I do not cling to any particular "side" (whatever they are?).
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As I said previously, there's different levels of care. I care about loss of life (who wouldn't?) but I don't care enough to go on a march of volunteer abroad. Most people are in the latter group but most people have no idea of the global conflicts happening. The Islamo-Commies care more for hating Israel than helping the Palestinians.

The idea that Wisbech is right wing is not backed up in any one of his posts, so he can say what he likes. I don't know how you vote but from your posts, but it's more leftist than right. Why can't people admit they think socialism is great? 😀
 
silvertop said:
Where are they?

A small clique of disillusioned ageing folk and a handful of blow hard student types who have no impact on anything..?

If that is who you are battling, they are already well beaten; but, best of luck finding the remaining handful to further beat.
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They have a big impact as they get attention from the mainstream media, which influences the public and politicians. There are plenty of Marxists in the Civil Service who cause a lot of damage and are totally unaccountable.
 
silvertop said:
Yeah, sweeping generalizations are rife on here but i should know better. Point made.

However, do you honestly think that, after centuries of persecution by us, they have no residual feelings towards gentiles at all?

The extraordinary thing is that the Irish largely don't have this. And if there are any people who have every reason to hate the English based on our history it's clearly them.
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If that was true about being persecuted, then we wouldn't see so much cooperation with Jewish communities or Israel allied with so many countries.

I have a large Irish family and there still is a bit of anti-English sentiment today – ironically, even if so many preach about being tolerant to LGBTQ, immigrants etc.

It's funny how the English (beyond football banter) don't have a problem with German people or the Japenese.

I'm looking forward to bringing up the fact that it was England, under Henry VIII, that established Ireland as a country at the next family dinner. 😀 😀
 
Penge Eagle said:
Nobody claimed that enjoying Western freedoms is "conditional" on supporting any country. But it is fair to question why some are obsessed with only one conflict, to the exclusion of others just as brutal, often worse.

You don't want to discuss historical points because it's inconvenient to your argument. If you're so confident of your position, you would welcome scrutiny.

Answer this: why does the outrage evaporate when children starve in Yemen, or when ethnic cleansing occurs in Syria, Myanmar, or Sudan? Or does moral clarity only exist when Israel is involved?

You have previously stated you don't believe Kier Starmer is left wing, which indicates that you're a radical left Corbynista. As for morals, just admit you follow an ideology that leaves morality behind. So it's no surprise you are anti-West and pick the side of Britain's enemies.
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Why do you always conveniently ignore the fact that what is happening in Israel gets far more attention and ‘moral outrage’ because they (and the US who Israel couldn’t do this without) are one of our closest historic allies, our government has many links to theirs, and we are directly involved in supplying them with weapons to help with what is going on.

We might not be able to stop what is going on, but we can assert our influence and distance ourselves from it, especially by refusing to supply weapons. What is going on in Sudan, Myanmar and Syria is just as bad, but there’s very little we can do about it.

If we want to think we have the moral superiority in the western world we have to hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards than terrorist organisations like Hamas and rogue nation states in other parts of the world. Otherwise we are just as barbaric as them.
 
DanH said:
Why do you always conveniently ignore the fact that what is happening in Israel gets far more attention and ‘moral outrage’ because they (and the US who Israel couldn’t do this without) are one of our closest historic allies, our government has many links to theirs, and we are directly involved in supplying them with weapons to help with what is going on.

We might not be able to stop what is going on, but we can assert our influence and distance ourselves from it, especially by refusing to supply weapons. What is going on in Sudan, Myanmar and Syria is just as bad, but there’s very little we can do about it.

If we want to think we have the moral superiority in the western world we have to hold ourselves and our allies to higher standards than terrorist organisations like Hamas and rogue nation states in other parts of the world. Otherwise we are just as barbaric as them.
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Your argument over-emphasises Israel as an ally to justify the disproportionate focus and outrage. You're right about holding allies to a higher standard. But you cannot claim any moral high ground if you selectively ignore other conflicts just because we don't arm them. It says more about political preferences than morality.
 
If Israel is able to eradicate Hamas and then hand over governance to an Arab run entity the people of Gaza have a chance to make something out of the nightmare of the Hamas dictatorship. If there are still Hamas around after Israel has handed over then a new idea might be needed. As long as the Arab governors can stop missile attacks then I think Israel will accept that and deal with the occasional incursion.
 
HKOwen said:
If Israel is able to eradicate Hamas and then hand over governance to an Arab run entity the people of Gaza have a chance to make something out of the nightmare of the Hamas dictatorship. If there are still Hamas around after Israel has handed over then a new idea might be needed. As long as the Arab governors can stop missile attacks then I think Israel will accept that and deal with the occasional incursion.
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I think everyone (well, everyone sensible) would be happy with this outcome.
 
Spindle said:
Shock news,

"Muslim country offers to take a few Muslims in, temporarily"

www.theguardian.com

Indonesia says it will treat 2,000 of Gaza’s wounded on uninhabited Galang island

Muslim-majority Indonesia says the plan to treat wounded Palestinians in island’s medical facility is a temporary and patients will return to Gaza
www.theguardian.com www.theguardian.com

Have our resident Palestinians been able to explain why the other Muslim nations don't want them yet?
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Did you actually read the article and reasons stated yourself?
 
Hollow words from the UK PM who supported cutting off electricity and water to innocent civilians.


UK switches spy flights to a US contractor to avoid it's complicity.

We could have supplied aid anytime, we have a sovereign base in Cyprus, instead we supported Israel. realising their war criminal leader's dream of endless war.

They don't call us 'peridious albion' without reason.
 
HKOwen said:
If Israel is able to eradicate Hamas and then hand over governance to an Arab run entity the people of Gaza have a chance to make something out of the nightmare of the Hamas dictatorship. If there are still Hamas around after Israel has handed over then a new idea might be needed. As long as the Arab governors can stop missile attacks then I think Israel will accept that and deal with the occasional incursion.
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With Macron, Carney and Starmer saying they will recognise the state of Palestine in September, I can understand why Israel wants to try an ensure that Gaza is as free of Hamas as possible, hence the army moving in to occupy. Perhaps by their statement of intent they have been the catalyst for the occupation?
 
Common Sense Club said:
With Macron, Carney and Starmer saying they will recognise the state of Palestine in September, I can understand why Israel wants to try an ensure that Gaza is as free of Hamas as possible, hence the army moving in to occupy. Perhaps by their statement of intent they have been the catalyst for the occupation?
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I wonder how much of that is about domestic politics as opposed to genuine concern.

As Western politicians, surely their best interests should be served by supporting Israel.
 
Eagleman13 said:
Not if the muslims in their respective countries turn on them. Think of all those lost votes.
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That's the point.

Our international policy must not be determined by fifth columnists at home.

If they are paying lip service to Palestine that is one thing, but genuine influence from anti Western entities must not be accepted.
 
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