Israel v Hamas

[Spindle]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1949961623902273910

Interesting take. Wonder if it is true.

Darwin would agree. Bradford's special needs authorities would too.

Translation

After seeing so many children with hereditary diseases in #Gaza in recent days, for which #Israel is not responsible, perhaps we should explain to the people in Gaza that one should not marry their first cousin or relatives in general. Even if Mohammed (the "Prophet") is said to have done so.This is, among other things, the reason for the many sick children.In addition, such cousin marriages lead to a lower IQ (between 5 and 13 points), child mortality is up to 50% higher, and it results in physical deformities

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Me too - I think empathy with people of other countries is a very normal thing.

It’s Penge who thinks it’s fake.

It's relative.

Empathy is cheap. Anyone can claim empathy. It's easy at a distance, and probably meaningless.

Prioritizing your own is essential to survival.

 

[Penge Eagle]

So just to be clear, you don’t care about the victims of October 7th..?

And your reasoned, logical position is that in order for you to argue against the ‘evil’ of the left, you have to unconditionally support a state which is killing and starving tens of thousands of civilians, including a huge number of children.

Good thing you know where the real evil lies. Moral compass is working perfectly.

Not for the first time, you have misrepresented what I have said. I care about all loss of life and it's why I have pointed out the similar suffering in Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar etc on this thread.

I have also pointed out that I've not seen any marches on the streets of Britain to raise awareness about these particular conflicts. Why is this? It's because people don't care.

The only people who really care are the ones who volunteer to help the suffering in these countries. The rest of us chat s*** on a football forum.

Your description of Israel tells us exactly what your agenda is.

As for morals, it's widely known that Western democracies are more moral than ones governed by Sharia Law. Am I wrong?

 

[Penge Eagle]

I for one am very much enjoying this new crater that Penge has dug himself.

You're the first to complain when someone makes a post like this to you!

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Not for the first time, you have misrepresented what I have said. I care about all loss of life and it's why I have pointed out the similar suffering in Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar etc on this thread.

I have also pointed out that I've not seen any marches on the streets of Britain to raise awareness about these particular conflicts. Why is this? It's because people don't care.

The only people who really care are the ones who volunteer to help the suffering in these countries. The rest of us chat s*** on a football forum.

Your description of Israel tells us exactly what your agenda is.

As for morals, it's widely known that Western democracies are more moral than ones governed by Sharia Law. Am I wrong?

"The idea that anyone in the UK cares about a population thousands of miles away is about as fake as the image that cartoon is based off. "

"I care about all loss of life and it's why I have pointed out the similar suffering in Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar etc on this thread."

You've completely contradicted yourself - nothing to do with misrepresentation.

My 'agenda-driven' description of Israel was as follows:

"A state which is killing and starving tens of thousands of civilians, including a huge number of children."

That is a statement of fact. Denial of that simple fact is considerably more indicative of an 'agenda'.

 

[Penge Eagle]

"The idea that anyone in the UK cares about a population thousands of miles away is about as fake as the image that cartoon is based off. "

"I care about all loss of life and it's why I have pointed out the similar suffering in Syria, Sudan, Yemen, Myanmar etc on this thread."

You've completely contradicted yourself - nothing to do with misrepresentation.

My 'agenda-driven' description of Israel was as follows:

"A state which is killing and starving tens of thousands of civilians, including a huge number of children."

That is a statement of fact. Denial of that simple fact is considerably more indicative of an 'agenda'.

The two statements seem contradictory but they are logical if you're able to understand the context. I should have really spelt out the difference between "I care" and "I really care".

I reject fake, emotionally manipulative outrage that pretends to care about one group while ignoring others. I care about all human suffering – not just the cause of the moment. If your concern is real, it should extend to all suffering – not just the cause that fits your political ideology.

Let me break it down to you the difference between "I care" and "I really care".

Category 1: I care – I acknowledge the suffering and think it's unfortunate. No action taken.

Category 2: I really care – I have a deep personal, emotional reaction. I donate or volunteer.

I would say most people in the UK are category 1.

You have been against Israel from day one (we have the receipts) before any children were "starved" so don't bullshit us. You just hate the West and are OK with Sharia.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Kind of European - India just had a huge 'National Day of Solidarity with Palestine'.

You mean this?

India's Left parties call for National Day of Solidarity with Palestine

India's Left parties — Communist Party of India (CPI), Communist Party of India (Marxist) (CPI (M)), Communist Party of India (ML)-Liberation (CPI-ML), All India Forward Bloc (AIFB), and Revolutionary Socialist Party (RSP)—have jointly issued the following statement:Observe June 17 as National...

www.theleftchapter.com

Left wing parties in India? I'm sure it happened but I can't find any attendance figure.

There are over a billion people in India....the vast majority of which couldn't give a monkeys dude.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Category 1: I care – I acknowledge the suffering and think it's unfortunate. No action taken.

Category 2: I really care – I have a deep personal, emotional reaction. I donate or volunteer.

I would say most people in the UK are category 1.

Yep, the difference between virtue signalling and actually living a principle.

If you aren't prepared to pay a cost towards a principle then you never really held it in the first place.

You just held an opinion you liked, which didn't cost you anything.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

The two statements seem contradictory but they are logical if you're able to understand the context. I should have really spelt out the difference between "I care" and "I really care".

I reject fake, emotionally manipulative outrage that pretends to care about one group while ignoring others. I care about all human suffering – not just the cause of the moment. If your concern is real, it should extend to all suffering – not just the cause that fits your political ideology.

Let me break it down to you the difference between "I care" and "I really care".

Category 1: I care – I acknowledge the suffering and think it's unfortunate. No action taken.

Category 2: I really care – I have a deep personal, emotional reaction. I donate or volunteer.

I would say most people in the UK are category 1.

You have been against Israel from day one (we have the receipts) before any children were "starved" so don't bullshit us. You just hate the West and are OK with Sharia.

To be clear, they are completely contradictory statements - that you want to insert new phrases and invent your own definitions as 'context' does not change that fact. Never mind spelling out the difference between 'care' and 'really care', you'd never even used the phrase 'really care' until this post 🤣

You could've just admitted it was a rubbish point and moved on; it happens to all of us, no big deal. The shovel is now working overtime as we work on entirely new and invented definitions of 'caring' and 'really caring' to try and make sense of your completely contradictory points.


And all the while you accuse me of misrepresenting your view by quoting the exact words you typed back at you, you continue to flat-out invent your representation of me which now extends to hating the West and being ok with Sharia law - obviously I've never expressed anything close to those views, but you are of course just a reasoned, logical poster who is simply defending Western values with nothing but facts.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You mean this?

India's Left parties call for National Day of Solidarity with Palestine

India's Left parties — Communist Party of India (CPI), Communist Party of India (Marxist) (CPI (M)), Communist Party of India (ML)-Liberation (CPI-ML), All India Forward Bloc (AIFB), and Revolutionary Socialist Party (RSP)—have jointly issued the following statement:Observe June 17 as National...

www.theleftchapter.com

Left wing parties in India? I'm sure it happened but I can't find any attendance figure.

There are over a billion people in India....the vast majority of which couldn't give a monkeys dude.

He is so blinded by his hatred of Israel, he's no knowledge or interest in understanding the context of the wider world.

Arab leaders, its media and opinion polls say they care about Palestinians but it's purely symbolic.

Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt have often abandoned the Palestinians, while UAE, Bahrain, Morocco, etc align with Israel with the Abraham Accords. Palestinian workers are treated like crap in the Gulf states.

There are few Arab grassroots movements that support Palestinians. The Palestinian cause among Arab youth is declining as they care more about the concerns of their own countries. As we should in Britain. Only the Islamo-Commie nutters disagree.

 

[georgenorman]

 

[Penge Eagle]

To be clear, they are completely contradictory statements - that you want to insert new phrases and invent your own definitions as 'context' does not change that fact. Never mind spelling out the difference between 'care' and 'really care', you'd never even used the phrase 'really care' until this post 🤣

You could've just admitted it was a rubbish point and moved on; it happens to all of us, no big deal. The shovel is now working overtime as we work on entirely new and invented definitions of 'caring' and 'really caring' to try and make sense of your completely contradictory points.


And all the while you accuse me of misrepresenting your view by quoting the exact words you typed back at you, you continue to flat-out invent your representation of me which now extends to hating the West and being ok with Sharia law - obviously I've never expressed anything close to those views, but you are of course just a reasoned, logical poster who is simply defending Western values with nothing but facts.

I'm always happy to clear things up for you. Do you understand now?

Which category do you fit in?

If you enjoy the freedoms of a Western society, then you should support its survival against ideologies that want to erase those freedoms.

You're great at ducking questions. Like you couldn't answer if you'd have supported Britain's blockade against Germany. That is pretty telling.

If there was a war between the USA and Russia/China, who would you want to win?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

I'm always happy to clear things up for you. Do you understand now?

Which category do you fit in?

If you enjoy the freedoms of a Western society, then you should support its survival against ideologies that want to erase those freedoms.

You're great at ducking questions. Like you couldn't answer if you'd have supported Britain's blockade against Germany. That is pretty telling.

If there was a war between the USA and Russia/China, who would you want to win?

I understand you made a woeful point, contradicted yourself, and then moved the goalposts to try and suggest you didn't, but that's ok - it happens to the best of us.

The idea that enjoyment of the freedoms of a Western society is conditional on supporting Israel's genocide is just a nonsense, as is the idea that our 'survival' is dependent on the starvation of children - everyone except brainwashed Zionists sees this guff for what it is.

I tend not engage with questions which are very obviously designed to divert and distract, like speculating on moral outlooks from a previous century or hypothesising about wars which don't exist - I understand your position has become more and more untenable and you've had to pivot and look for new ways to do anything but talk about Israel and Gaza, but I don't have to engage with such transparently silly games.

You've swerved plenty of questions of your own.

 

[silvertop]

I post because I have an interest in geopolitics and like to counter mainstream media lies and the Marxists. Leftists like you might not appreciate the West but I do, especially its Judeo-Christian values.

I recently spent a fair amount of time with British Jews at the Marble Arch Synagogue and they don't share that opinion you claim of Israelis, whenever that was.

Firstly, so you do care about the lives of people thousands of miles away.

Secondly, those jews you met were clearly not gentiles.

Thirdly, why am I "leftist"? This is a term used by many on here as an easy attack on anyone you disagree with. He can argue for himself, but take Wisbech (please!). It doesn't seem to matter that he is in his 70s and has voted Tory in all but one election but out comes the "lefty" slur every time he says anything that is not what you say.

For me, I am "right" on some things (e.g. I voted Remain) and "left" on others ( e.g. I don't like the IDF bombing and starving non combatant communities by way of ethnic cleansing); but I do not cling to any particular "side" (whatever they are?).

 

[silvertop]

I post because I have an interest in geopolitics and like to counter mainstream media lies and the Marxists. Leftists like you might not appreciate the West but I do, especially its Judeo-Christian values.

I recently spent a fair amount of time with British Jews at the Marble Arch Synagogue and they don't share that opinion you claim of Israelis, whenever that was.

Where are they?

A small clique of disillusioned ageing folk and a handful of blow hard student types who have no impact on anything..?

If that is who you are battling, they are already well beaten; but, best of luck finding the remaining handful to further beat.

 

[silvertop]

Ah yes, the classic "I met a few people, so now I speak for an entire nation" take.

The idea that all Israelis "hate gentiles" is not just laughably ignorant, it’s exactly the kind of sweeping generalisation that fuels the very prejudice he is pretending to condemn.

Yeah, sweeping generalizations are rife on here but i should know better. Point made.

However, do you honestly think that, after centuries of persecution by us, they have no residual feelings towards gentiles at all?

The extraordinary thing is that the Irish largely don't have this. And if there are any people who have every reason to hate the English based on our history it's clearly them.

 

[silvertop]

It's a valid observation.

I'll always have time for those amongst us arguing for peace and mercy within any conflict....if only for the reality of coercion within all conflicts. It's always a minority willing to actually kill someone face to face.

However, the criticism I have for the social liberals stems from the fact that philosophically I'm somewhere between a 'two-level consequentialist' and a 'negative consequentialist', so I'm critical of what I perceive as idealism divorced from reality that gets emitted from many of Israel's critics.

They aren't that invested in actually doing anything about the conflict other than virtue signalling and that's always valid to mock. Even though I regard it as pointless I have some time for people who live their principles and actually went out there to deliver aid.....Not that it's going to get there.



Yep, when it comes down to it, if you want to remove people away from their land you are going to have to kill quite a lot of them.

It's not for everyone and Netty will have his biggest conflict internally with those he tasks with the dirty work. We are talking about a lot of women and children.

But from Netty's perspective, in for a penny, in for the pound.

A lot of people in Israel will oppose him not just the IDF.

I don't know if he'll win that battle but I suspect he will.

The body bag issue will bother him....but this guy isn't stupid and I suspect won't be planning that kind of occupation for long.

How are you able to clearly distinguish between someone caring and posting they care, and self-serving virtue signaling?

Something of a thin line, no?

Some may argue that those who post so vociferously in favour if Israel's actions are apologists for child murder, but they are wrong. There are many common traits across the political spectrum and one is an unambiguous dislike of the killing of children. However, I do think they are blinded to it or somehow feel able to discount it as perhaps a worthwhile price to pay in order to back Israel as an island of western values in a sea of barbarity. That is where they and I divide.

Btw, the occupation may have turned very nasty, probably around the time the Democrats return to power and Israel's rug is pulled. I can't predict how that will end.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yeah, sweeping generalizations are rife on here but i should know better. Point made.

However, do you honestly think that, after centuries of persecution by us, they have no residual feelings towards gentiles at all?

The extraordinary thing is that the Irish largely don't have this. And if there are any people who have every reason to hate the English based on our history it's clearly them.

The Irish are mixed in with the British....the native British that is. They are cousins, as are all northern Europeans and it was a brother/cousin war. We have Irish regiments, Irish fought with us in both world wars.

And this attitude is a bit reductionist anyway.....Plenty of British were killed by the Irish and believe me there was plenty of hatred to go round.

You probably don't give a fig about deaths we took but I do......Mountbatten and that poor kid bleeding out. My father's side knew people who died in the Hyde Park bombing.

You talk like this isn't part of a living and still painful history.

 

[Stirlingsays]

How are you able to clearly distinguish between someone caring and posting they care, and self-serving virtue signaling?

Something of a thin line, no?

I recognise that people care on both sides.....I have no problem with people giving opinions, but that's all it is.

I just make the point that If people really care they would do something about it, contribute money, get out there and so on and so forth.

There are opinions and there are principles.

I'm not saying that people are bad because they have opinions I was just describing different levels of commitment.....A principle that you don't pay a price for isn't a principle.

Some may argue that those who post so vociferously in favour if Israel's actions are apologists for child murder, but they are wrong. There are many common traits across the political spectrum and one is an unambiguous dislike of the killing of children. However, I do think they are blinded to it or somehow feel able to discount it as perhaps a worthwhile price to pay in order to back Israel as an island of western values in a sea of barbarity. That is where they and I divide.

Btw, the occupation may have turned very nasty, probably around the time the Democrats return to power and Israel's rug is pulled. I can't predict how that will end.

There are people dying horribly every day off camera.....no one gives a monkeys about it. They are concern promiscuous and directed by media.

There are fashionable causes.....personally I think that unless you're a liberal European or ethnically Arab or Palestinian you're far less likely to express a specific concern for Palestinians over and above say the Sudanese currently dying in the civil war over there.....or Christians being killed by Nigerian ISIS or in Syria and around the world.

 

[Stirlingsays]

Arrest this feck and put him in jail for a month cleaning out the toilets.