cryrst
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- Location
- The garden of England
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England
How many in Gaza have protested about the hostage video !
Israel v Hamas
- Topic starter Forest Hillbilly
- Start date
Stirlingsays
Member
- Country
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England
I try to forget about this thread even though I know it means a lot to both sides....but it kind of reveals the truth about real power....the money power (especially in the west).
For me what's happening in Gaza (and will happen in the rest of the west bank) is just a reflection of the difference between narrative and reality.
There is what is presented from both sides and then there is the truth, which is rarely the same thing.
Now I'm a cynic and it's true I think conspiracies exist....not all the harebrained ones of course (we went to the moon, and heat weakened trusses not thermite brought down the twin towers) but nevertheless I regard it as lunacy to believe that intel and security apparatus around the world aren't heavily involved in some of what you see.....to some extent, if not behind it (Kennedy) but either more funding it (Iran Contra) or aware of what's going to happen (some parts of mossad knew 9/11 plans).
Similarly I think Mossad and old Netty knew about plans for October 7th......I doubt it's provable as intelligent people destroy paper trails and like the top criminals don't leave records of what they are doing other than other humans (who they then control via blackmail or fear).
Then there is just logic.
Netanyahu won't survive politically nor probably physically very long if by the end of this horrible saga Gaza isn't being run by Israel with a defanged, declining and totally dependent Palestinian population.
He knows that he can only get this done with American diplomatic and security cover and that only Trump can do this to the extent of doing what he wants in Gaza. Does anyone seriously think he's going to let that opportunity slip?
Similarly the West Bank is on a timer, it's already split up into enclaves and it's just a matter of time there, maybe another decade or two.
We keep hearing in the media of pressure on Netanyahu and his cabinet to stop....really? If he stops he's toast, his enemies are out for him like bees to nectar. There really is only one way out for him and that's not stopping until enough Jews see him as the security hero.....if they really wanted progress they would pressure Trump's donors (now that would get them some real heat).
So when I hear all this whining from social liberals really I have to say to them....yeah, you and who's army? This is a done deal.
Yeah, it's horrible morally.....Yep....but it's happening.
Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah let Israel take them out one at a time and to be honest if you're that divided and thick perhaps the Jews kicking your arse is just as well.......I can weep for all the innocents and especially children who are destroyed (which to a much smaller extent has happened to Jews here as well), but that's why I'm so against war.....especially stupid wars, where you are relying upon luck rather than heavy odds in your favour.
The real opposition to old Netty is from the IDF itself and the concern from within it that doubts that it can actually occupy Gaza without constant attacks and will be forced into 'clearing house' and a lot of the top brass don't want their name to be associated with that (thinking of what comes after Netty).
In the real world 'might is right'.....not 'virtue signalling is right'.
No one has to like it, but whatever entity eventually takes over from the Americans.....they will be the same, as might is right is a universal aspect of human nature.
For me what's happening in Gaza (and will happen in the rest of the west bank) is just a reflection of the difference between narrative and reality.
There is what is presented from both sides and then there is the truth, which is rarely the same thing.
Now I'm a cynic and it's true I think conspiracies exist....not all the harebrained ones of course (we went to the moon, and heat weakened trusses not thermite brought down the twin towers) but nevertheless I regard it as lunacy to believe that intel and security apparatus around the world aren't heavily involved in some of what you see.....to some extent, if not behind it (Kennedy) but either more funding it (Iran Contra) or aware of what's going to happen (some parts of mossad knew 9/11 plans).
Similarly I think Mossad and old Netty knew about plans for October 7th......I doubt it's provable as intelligent people destroy paper trails and like the top criminals don't leave records of what they are doing other than other humans (who they then control via blackmail or fear).
Then there is just logic.
Netanyahu won't survive politically nor probably physically very long if by the end of this horrible saga Gaza isn't being run by Israel with a defanged, declining and totally dependent Palestinian population.
He knows that he can only get this done with American diplomatic and security cover and that only Trump can do this to the extent of doing what he wants in Gaza. Does anyone seriously think he's going to let that opportunity slip?
Similarly the West Bank is on a timer, it's already split up into enclaves and it's just a matter of time there, maybe another decade or two.
We keep hearing in the media of pressure on Netanyahu and his cabinet to stop....really? If he stops he's toast, his enemies are out for him like bees to nectar. There really is only one way out for him and that's not stopping until enough Jews see him as the security hero.....if they really wanted progress they would pressure Trump's donors (now that would get them some real heat).
So when I hear all this whining from social liberals really I have to say to them....yeah, you and who's army? This is a done deal.
Yeah, it's horrible morally.....Yep....but it's happening.
Iran, Hamas and Hezbollah let Israel take them out one at a time and to be honest if you're that divided and thick perhaps the Jews kicking your arse is just as well.......I can weep for all the innocents and especially children who are destroyed (which to a much smaller extent has happened to Jews here as well), but that's why I'm so against war.....especially stupid wars, where you are relying upon luck rather than heavy odds in your favour.
The real opposition to old Netty is from the IDF itself and the concern from within it that doubts that it can actually occupy Gaza without constant attacks and will be forced into 'clearing house' and a lot of the top brass don't want their name to be associated with that (thinking of what comes after Netty).
In the real world 'might is right'.....not 'virtue signalling is right'.
No one has to like it, but whatever entity eventually takes over from the Americans.....they will be the same, as might is right is a universal aspect of human nature.
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CPFCSaturn
Member
- Country
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England
That you find people having empathy with a population being massacred and starved so unbelievable speaks far more to your own morals than it does anyone else’s.
Forest Hillbilly
Member
- Location
- in a hidey-hole
- Country
Wales
Sydney Harbour Bridge: Tens of thousands turn out for pro-Palestine march
The Sydney Harbour Bridge was closed by the march, after it was authorised to go ahead by the Supreme Court hours earlier.
www.bbc.co.uk
Live Aid never happened
90,000 people protesting in Sydney. They should keep their big noses out 🙂
CPFCSaturn
Member
- Country
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England
It’s such a poor point - there are literally hundreds of examples throughout history of ‘people caring about a population thousands of miles away’.Sydney Harbour Bridge: Tens of thousands turn out for pro-Palestine march
The Sydney Harbour Bridge was closed by the march, after it was authorised to go ahead by the Supreme Court hours earlier.
Live Aid never happened
90,000 people protesting in Sydney. They should keep their big noses out 🙂
It seems the only argument left is not to deny the atrocities or even defend Israel’s conduct, it’s just to pretend that opposition to children being slaughtered is somehow fake.
Grim.
Wisbech Eagle
Member
- Location
- Truro Cornwall
- Country
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England
I doubt whether too many would have seen it, given their living conditions. Watching videos, even if you have any electricity, comes rather lower on the list of priorities than finding enough to eat, shelter and health care for your family.
- Location
- Surrey
- Country
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England
The "empathy" is very selective, isn't it.
CPFCSaturn
Member
- Country
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England
Does this apply to the Israeli victims of October 7th as well?
You seem to be suggesting that nobody in the UK cares about foreign populations, so I assume that logic would also extend to Israelis..?
CPFCSaturn
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- Country
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England
This was always the plan.
silvertop
Member
- Location
- Portishead
- Country
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England
I don't disagree with any substantive point on Israel. Just 2 observations.
One, you can't help attacking whining social liberals while wholly agreeing with the basis for their position. The only difference is that they shrug their shoulders in helplessness, while you shrug your shoulders in cynical helplessness.
Two, is about the IDF being the greatest threat to Netty. I agree. On this I will doubtless be attacked but - honestly - it is the only analogy I can think of.
Himmler received reports, during the early days of the holocaust, of his personnel suffering trauma as a consequence of their hands-on atrocities. That experience taught them to provide distance between his personnel and the acts. Putting poison in a hole away from the "showers", engaging "trustees" and local militia to do all the dirty work (with next to no German guards) etc. provided the means to achieve that.
Likewise, the IDF are more than happy killing in large numbers so long as that killing is achieved remotely through aerial bombardment, drones, artillery, tank fire and American freelancers who seem immune to emotion and will happily shoot children, women or anyone else who passes their cross hairs. So far so good Netty.
However, wait till the IDF have to really get their boots muddy. Wait till they have to garrison Gaza. Wait till the body bags start to return to Israel. Wait till the eyes of the world are watching their every move and criticizing any error (as we faced in Ireland) and the reaction they get if they ever leave Israel (or even at home - Vietnam?). The Americans celebrated their easy win over Iraq. Then...
The IDF and Israel are happy now they are easily winning without getting their hands dirty and will doubtless be happy in the early days of occupation. That will not last.
silvertop
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- Location
- Portishead
- Country
-
England
You do. At least you care about the population of Israel.
Common Sense Club
Member
- Country
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England
I don’t disagree with your words ; I would mention that the state of Gaza with hardly a building still standing and a population desperate for food and medicine, shouldn’t be too difficult for Israel to govern. The body bag count may be smaller than you suggest…Israel arrives with aid AND its military and maybe the population starts to act like Pavlovs Dogs. Also, just how much weaponary can Hamas have left?
Stirlingsays
Member
- Country
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England
It's a valid observation.
I'll always have time for those amongst us arguing for peace and mercy within any conflict....if only for the reality of coercion within all conflicts. It's always a minority willing to actually kill someone face to face.
However, the criticism I have for the social liberals stems from the fact that philosophically I'm somewhere between a 'two-level consequentialist' and a 'negative consequentialist', so I'm critical of what I perceive as idealism divorced from reality that gets emitted from many of Israel's critics.
They aren't that invested in actually doing anything about the conflict other than virtue signalling and that's always valid to mock. Even though I regard it as pointless I have some time for people who live their principles and actually went out there to deliver aid.....Not that it's going to get there.
Yep, when it comes down to it, if you want to remove people away from their land you are going to have to kill quite a lot of them.
It's not for everyone and Netty will have his biggest conflict internally with those he tasks with the dirty work. We are talking about a lot of women and children.
But from Netty's perspective, in for a penny, in for the pound.
A lot of people in Israel will oppose him not just the IDF.
I don't know if he'll win that battle but I suspect he will.
The body bag issue will bother him....but this guy isn't stupid and I suspect won't be planning that kind of occupation for long.
- Location
- Surrey
- Country
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England
I don't. I only have empathy for the people of the United Kingdom. My posts on this topic is in support of Western values and to argue against the evil of left-wing ideology with facts, reason and logic.
Hahahaha. What a post.
silvertop
Member
- Location
- Portishead
- Country
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England
A fair viewpoint as you are able to opine on matters you have greater knowledge of, which impacts you directly and which you can (at least in theory) alter via the vote.
However, if so, why post on this thread at all? Spindle and Georgenorman appear (I'm guessing) motivated by their respective faiths, but I can't figure why you care so much to take such a strong view.
Btw having met many Israelis if you encountered them they would probably hate you as a gentile and foreigner. They scoff at American Christians and others who assert western solidarity. We persecuted them for millenia. Any love is one way.
steeleye20
Member
- Location
- Croydon
- Country
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England
The reason there is no ignore button for this person is because he knows everybody would use it.
😎
- Location
- Surrey
- Country
-
England
Yet another thoughtfully constructed comment.
Stirlingsays
Member
- Country
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England
Steely, you do realise he's mostly right wing and so are most of us.
Stirlingsays
Member
- Country
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England