Israel v Hamas

[CPFCSaturn]

More cluelessness. The Taliban did not hide in hospitals and behind civilians. If you watched any footage of that war you would know that ISAF always knew when an attack was imminent because the villagers disappeared. They were warned, not used as shields. Also, the cities were controlled by ISAF forces so you aren't going to get mass civilian casualties because there aren't masses of civilians.

Jesus Christ this is blindingly obvious

Of course there are always going to be differences in campaigns.

The Americans didn't indiscriminately bomb civilian infrastructure or snipe children, so those are other differences.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Yes, a war where we had to kill millions in order to prevail.

Perhaps we should have just decided it was all too horrendous and surrendered.

If we apply your logic, that would have made the world a better place.

It's debatable whether we had to, but I won't detract from the topic.

That's not remotely applying my logic, or any logic for that matter.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

It's debatable whether we had to, but I won't detract from the topic.

That's not remotely applying my logic, or any logic for that matter.

Israel's very existence is at stake, but that is not all.

It faces an enemy that threatens the West's way of life. It is fighting a dirty war against a ruthless enemy.

Sound familiar? Your liberal sensibilities mean nothing in this context.

Make no mistake, this is also a proxy war. Look at a map of the Earth and see how small it really is.

 

[Phil’s Barber]

HAMAS have been shooting their own people at aid centres, so that gives you an idea of the type of enemy Israel is up against.
Bleating about war crimes from your sofa is very easy.

Do you call the killing of civilians in war a war crime in every example?

Atrocities are part and parcel of warfare. It's ugly, it's horrible, and it is certainly not some game for gentleman.
If this was a one sided turkey shoot, I'd be on your side on this, but it is far more complicated than that.

Added to this is that no one seems to like a Human Shield quite like Hamas do!

Or getting their operatives to use command centres, weapons caches or supply tunnels beneath schools, hospitals or places of worship. No doubt their operatives thought they could hold their meeting at the cafe due to the Human Shield provided by the customers and members of public present.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Israel's very existence is at stake, but that is not all.

It faces an enemy that threatens the West's way of life. It is fighting a dirty war against a ruthless enemy.

Sound familiar? Your liberal sensibilities mean nothing in this context.

Make no mistake, this is also a proxy war. Look at a map of the Earth and see how small it really is.

Israel can very comfortably defend their borders.

Phrases like 'a dirty war against a ruthless enemy' are just meaningless guff - it doesn't justify Israel's conduct. No matter how many times you tell me about 'threats to the West' and whatever other soundbites you want to throw out there, it's not going to make Israel's conduct any more acceptable.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Added to this is that no one seems to like a Human Shield quite like Hamas do!

Or getting their operatives to use command centres, weapons caches or supply tunnels beneath schools, hospitals or places of worship. No doubt their operatives thought they could hold their meeting at the cafe due to the Human Shield provided by the customers and members of public present.

Or, the whole thing has been massively overstated by the IDF over a long time period to continually justify the indiscriminate nature of their attacks.

They've bombed nearly every building in Gaza - 92% of residential buildings, nearly every hospital and school - it's incredibly unlikely to me that every one of those was military infrastructure.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

"During the course of its conflicts with Hamas, Israel has often charged the militant group with using Palestinian civilians as human shields to deter Israeli military attacks or to cause large civilian casualty tolls and provoke international condemnation of the Jewish State—charges denied by the Hamas leadership. While such allegations have received occasional support from Israel’s geopolitical allies, such as the United States and the European Union, investigations by the United Nations and independent human rights groups have failed to substantiate them, while at the same time gathering evidence of Israel's own extensive involvement in using Palestinians as human shields during conflicts in the Gaza Strip or police operations in the occupied West Bank. While acknowledging that Hamas has launched rocket attacks against Israeli targets not far from civilian infrastructure in Gaza, Amnesty International says such behavior does not equate to the use of human shields.

International rights scholars have argued Israel exploits such allegations to cover up atrocities against Palestinian civilians and pre-empt sanctions for breaches of international law. Prominent civilian targets, such as the Al-Jalaa media tower, have been destroyed by Israeli forces under accusations that Hamas had misused them militarily, though these accusations have not been confirmed by third party investigators or have been refuted by survivors and witnesses.

More recently, however, Israeli civilians who survived the October 7, 2023 attack have told media and human rights groups that Hamas used them as human shields. However, accusations that Hamas has used Gaza hospitals and schools as military bases, made by Israel to justify, among other things, the attack on Al-Shifa hospital and the destruction of the Turkish-Palestinian Friendship Hospital, remain unsupported or have been refuted by media investigation.
"

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Israel can very comfortably defend their borders.

Phrases like 'a dirty war against a ruthless enemy' are just meaningless guff - it doesn't justify Israel's conduct. No matter how many times you tell me about 'threats to the West' and whatever other soundbites you want to throw out there, it's not going to make Israel's conduct any more acceptable.

Unless you are a Jew in Israel.

'Conduct'? You make it sound like a gentleman's club.

 

[Phil’s Barber]

Or, the whole thing has been massively overstated by the IDF over a long time period to continually justify the indiscriminate nature of their attacks.

They've bombed nearly every building in Gaza - 92% of residential buildings, nearly every hospital and school - it's incredibly unlikely to me that every one of those was military infrastructure.

There may be an element of truth in this but conversely we have seen evidence of command centres, weapons caches and supply tunnels beneath or in all three and in many other areas or structures of civilian population. Hamas are quite possibly the worst organisation for using this tactic.

But again, as the last paragraph of the Guardian article you posted pointed out; the present war was started by the Hamas attacks against Israelis on October 7. I don’t necessarily like Israel but I do side with them in this instance and can’t blame them for trying to wipe out Hamas within Gaza, which I understand was their stated intention.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

There may be an element of truth in this but conversely we have seen evidence of command centres, weapons caches and supply tunnels beneath or in all three and in many other areas or structures of civilian population. Hamas are quite possibly the worst organisation for using this tactic.

But again, as the last paragraph of the Guardian article you posted pointed out; the present war was started by the Hamas attacks against Israelis on October 7. I don’t necessarily like Israel but I do side with them in this instance and can’t blame them for trying to wipe out Hamas within Gaza, which I understand was their stated intention.

What evidence have we seen?

That wasn’t a Guardian article.

 

[eaglesdare]

Basically it all boils down to Hamas who control Gaza launched an unprovoked war on Israel with their October 7 attack targeting civilians and escalating the conflict.

Israel is defending itself and is rightfully responding to protect its citizens from Hamas terrorist actions.

Hamas can simply surrender and this is over. But they don't care about their own citizens and only care about mass genocide of Israel. Israel must win the war.

 

[Spindle]

Of course there are always going to be differences in campaigns.

The Americans didn't indiscriminately bomb civilian infrastructure or snipe children, so those are other differences.

You lot are born yesterday

Haska Meyna wedding party airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wech Baghtu wedding party airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2013 Radda airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Azizabad airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Granai airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2010 Sangin airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Uruzgan helicopter attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Should we add on the blue on blue incidents too?

 

[Spindle]

Or, the whole thing has been massively overstated by the IDF over a long time period to continually justify the indiscriminate nature of their attacks.

They've bombed nearly every building in Gaza - 92% of residential buildings, nearly every hospital and school - it's incredibly unlikely to me that every one of those was military infrastructure.

Well they aren't unless you stick weapons and tunnels in and around it. If a single window is broken from a blast they'll call it damaged, don't know why you believe EVERYTHING they claim.

 

[Penge Eagle]

I mean music festivals are not remotely of interest to me, and I hate how much these sort of talking points detract from the real issues, but no, I don’t have any issue with people singing songs critical of militaries.

I think the IDF are reprehensible and no better than terrorists.

How about individual IDF soldiers as that singer/rapper (sic) said on this clip?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1940776920267854142

 

[Spindle]

Yeah Bob didn't mean it


Owen Jones, they'd throw you off the rooftop

 

[Spiderman]

WW2 is a horrendous barometer for warfare - it was the depravity of WW2 that led to the world agreeing to do better.

A 20-year campaign in Afghanistan from 2001-2021 is reported to have less than 50,000 civilian deaths.

The US military documents claim around 65,000 civilian deaths in Iraq from 2004-09.

Even if we accept the count in Gaza at 50,000 (I am very confident it's much higher), 50,000 civilians in just 18 months is miles above the rates in Iraq and Afghanistan.

October 7th is mentioned multiple times every single day on here - it's not difficult to remember it. It does nothing to justify Israel's conduct since.

You do realise how large a country Afghanistan is and how spread out the population is, do you?

 

[Spindle]

You can watch the whole thing if you want, but to the people here who said everyone is starving

 

[Stirlingsays]

Yeah Bob didn't mean it


Owen Jones, they'd throw you off the rooftop

I'd throw him off his dollhouse.

 

[Badger11]

I try and keep off this thread as I don't have any strong views on either side.

One of the main stories on BBC

Gaza aid contractor tells BBC he saw colleagues fire on hungry Palestinians

The Israel- and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation has strongly denied the allegation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Now what I find worrying is the lack of evidence for these allegations which if true are disgusting and criminal. The GHF have categorically denied them (well they would, wouldn't they).

All we have is one unnamed source and no evidence. The source maybe telling truth, then again...

I would be interested in how the BBC verified this story?

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

It's the same on both sides.
"If true"
They're as bad as each other.
Israel just has more weapons