Israel v Hamas

[eaglesdare]

I try and keep off this thread as I don't have any strong views on either side.

One of the main stories on BBC

Gaza aid contractor tells BBC he saw colleagues fire on hungry Palestinians

The Israel- and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation has strongly denied the allegation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Now what I find worrying is the lack of evidence for these allegations which if true are disgusting and criminal. The GHF have categorically denied them (well they would, wouldn't they).

All we have is one unnamed source and no evidence. The source maybe telling truth, then again...

I would be interested in how the BBC verified this story?

"the man who made these allegations is a "disgruntled former contractor" who they had terminated for misconduct"

 

[Badger11]

"the man who made these allegations is a "disgruntled former contractor" who they had terminated for misconduct"

If that is true, "big if" then that is poor by the BBC.

What about the BBC so called Verify team?

 

[eaglesdare]

If that is true, "big if" then that is poor by the BBC.

What about the BBC so called Verify team?

Just consistent really from them. Wouldn't expect anything else.

 

[Phil’s Barber]

What evidence have we seen?

That wasn’t a Guardian article.

Apologies, it was the Guardian article regarding the type of bomb dropped on the cafe. It was posted by DanH not you, sorry for the confusion.

Regarding the evidence of tunnels, weapons caches and/or command centres beneath schools, hospitals or in residential areas…there are literally hundreds of reports, videos and eye witness accounts listed on various news sites. It is widely known what tactics the terrorist organisation Hamas use and it would be naive to try and dismiss each and everyone as fake news.

 

[HKOwen]

I try and keep off this thread as I don't have any strong views on either side.

One of the main stories on BBC

Gaza aid contractor tells BBC he saw colleagues fire on hungry Palestinians

The Israel- and US-backed Gaza Humanitarian Foundation has strongly denied the allegation.

www.bbc.co.uk

Now what I find worrying is the lack of evidence for these allegations which if true are disgusting and criminal. The GHF have categorically denied them (well they would, wouldn't they).

All we have is one unnamed source and no evidence. The source maybe telling truth, then again...

I would be interested in how the BBC verified this story?

Some Friday humour there, verified ROTFLMAO

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You lot are born yesterday

Haska Meyna wedding party airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Wech Baghtu wedding party airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2013 Radda airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Azizabad airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Granai airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

2010 Sangin airstrike - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Uruzgan helicopter attack - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Should we add on the blue on blue incidents too?

Sorry, is this meant to be evidence of indiscriminate bombing of civilians?

I’ve already acknowledged that atrocities will exist in every conflict - that there are is a small list of examples from a 20 year campaign is not remotely surprising.

I think it’s more telling that the US Army killing 15-20 civilians in an attack warrants its own wiki article and investigation. Israel do that nearly every day and no one bats an eyelid - that’s exactly my point.

I watched the Bin Laden documentary on Netflix recently - the caution the US military took in that operation is almost hilarious in contrast to how the IDF operate - monitoring a compound for weeks and weeks, and despite being almost certain of their #1 military target’s presence in the compound, they still didn’t just blow it to smithereens and planned a targeted ground operation to get to him. The IDF would’ve just bombed the whole neighbourhood.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You do realise how large a country Afghanistan is and how spread out the population is, do you?

I do.

You do realise how much longer 20 years is than 18 months, do you?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

"the man who made these allegations is a "disgruntled former contractor" who they had terminated for misconduct"

This is a really good example of how bias works and how people just filter through any information that doesn’t align with their preconception.

You can just pick out a single quote that allows you to mentally dismiss everything else being said and move on. You can even ignore the very next sentence which says “He showed us evidence that he left the post on good terms”.

So one claim, without evidence, from a source who have proved themselves to be liars over and over again is taken at face value, whilst the counter claim, with evidence and detail provided, can be roundly dismissed.

Fascinating.

 

[eaglesdare]

This is a really good example of how bias works and how people just filter through any information that doesn’t align with their preconception.

You can just pick out a single quote that allows you to mentally dismiss everything else being said and move on. You can even ignore the very next sentence which says “He showed us evidence that he left the post on good terms”.

So one claim, without evidence, from a source who have proved themselves to be liars over and over again is taken at face value, whilst the counter claim, with evidence and detail provided, can be roundly dismissed.

Fascinating.

The article is full of contradictions. That particular line I quoted sums it all up.

 

[DanH]

This is a really good example of how bias works and how people just filter through any information that doesn’t align with their preconception.

You can just pick out a single quote that allows you to mentally dismiss everything else being said and move on. You can even ignore the very next sentence which says “He showed us evidence that he left the post on good terms”.

So one claim, without evidence, from a source who have proved themselves to be liars over and over again is taken at face value, whilst the counter claim, with evidence and detail provided, can be roundly dismissed.

Fascinating.

He’s like AI MAGA. Only with about 50% of the I bit.

 

[Badger11]

I think the bigger issue is why has the BBC posted this article.

My understanding is that on most days media organisations are approached by individuals and groups pushing an agenda from pranks to political spin through to fraud and lies. They should be well versed in picking out dubious stories or stories that need further investigation before publishing.

As far as I can tell there is very little evidence to back this up if there is then the story is badly written and should have made that more obvious.

 

[Spindle]

"the man who made these allegations is a "disgruntled former contractor" who they had terminated for misconduct"

How bad must misconduct be to be kicked out of a charity embedded in a war zone? Worse than those nonces in Haiti

 

[Spindle]

Sorry, is this meant to be evidence of indiscriminate bombing of civilians?

I’ve already acknowledged that atrocities will exist in every conflict - that there are is a small list of examples from a 20 year campaign is not remotely surprising.

I think it’s more telling that the US Army killing 15-20 civilians in an attack warrants its own wiki article and investigation. Israel do that nearly every day and no one bats an eyelid - that’s exactly my point.

I watched the Bin Laden documentary on Netflix recently - the caution the US military took in that operation is almost hilarious in contrast to how the IDF operate - monitoring a compound for weeks and weeks, and despite being almost certain of their #1 military target’s presence in the compound, they still didn’t just blow it to smithereens and planned a targeted ground operation to get to him. The IDF would’ve just bombed the whole neighbourhood.

You're right, it's not indiscriminate, they are examples of discriminate bombing.

 

[indianapalace85]

"the man who made these allegations is a "disgruntled former contractor" who they had terminated for misconduct"

Of course they're going to say that.

If we shouldn't directly be believing the BBC then we shouldn't also believe that this was a former disgruntled employee just because the IDF said so.

Double standards again.

 

[indianapalace85]

If this 60-day ceasefire is to go ahead, then that will truly test the IDF/Israel's desire for peace.

If they break the ceasefire again claiming that either Hamas/Iran fired, then it will need looking into - the same way, it will need looking into if Hamas or Iran break it themselves.

 

[indianapalace85]

As for the cafe bombing, Israel said they used aerial surveillance to ensure limited civilian casualties.

So the decision was still made to drop a bomb knowing full well that it was full of civilians, even if one Hamas operative was there.

I'd like to see a full transparent report to see every decision made leading up to that decision to see how they thought that was still acceptable collateral.

 

[indianapalace85]

Need the obvious be said again...The IDFs aim is to target hamas who are a terrorist organisation responsible for launching thousands of rockets at Israeli civilians. They are also using civilian areas in Gaza as cover for their operations.

Hamas tactic of setting up infrastructure such as weapons caches and tunnels and bases in civilian areas like hospitals and schools complicates the IDFs efforts to lower the civilian casualties. The IDF takes measures like issuing warnings and to reduce the civilian harm.

The Gaza health ministry is run by hamas. So the numbers reported by them can be taken with a pinch of salt.

Israel has allowed and continues to allow thousands of aid trucks into gaza. Delays and disruptions often stem from hamas attacks and they are subject to security checks which are necessary to prevent weapons smuggling in by the terrorists.

Peace requires the other side to negotiate in good faith but all hamas want to do is destroy Israel (genocide) which makes that fairly difficult.

This is so one-sided, it's beyond belief.

Taking the Hamas run health ministry with a pinch of salt can be in no way lesser than the IDF saying they're allowing aid trucks, when multiple reports are that they're murdering Palestinians and preventing aid altogether, also reporters being banned from Gaza.

Very telling.

I don't trust Israel or the IDF any more than I trust Trump or Putin.

 

[Spiderman]

I do.

You do realise how much longer 20 years is than 18 months, do you?

Yes thanks

 

[eaglesdare]

This is so one-sided, it's beyond belief.

Taking the Hamas run health ministry with a pinch of salt can be in no way lesser than the IDF saying they're allowing aid trucks, when multiple reports are that they're murdering Palestinians and preventing aid altogether, also reporters being banned from Gaza.

Very telling.

I don't trust Israel or the IDF any more than I trust Trump or Putin.

Dismissing the IDFs efforts while ignoring the Hamas terrorism is also wildy unbalanced. You are focusing only on unverified claims against Israel.

The gaza health ministry numbers which is run by Hamas have been debunked for inconsistencies numerous times. A few days after the headlines have come out.

Comparing Israel to putin or trump is just being lazy. You are dodging the reality of fighting a genocidal terror group.

If you are upset about aid or casualties why have you not said anything about hamas robbing supplies or their refusal to negotiate peace?

If you want fairness then you can start by holding hamas accountable for their war crimes instead of painting Israel as the villain.

 

[Spindle]

If this 60-day ceasefire is to go ahead, then that will truly test the IDF/Israel's desire for peace.

If they break the ceasefire again claiming that either Hamas/Iran fired, then it will need looking into - the same way, it will need looking into if Hamas or Iran break it themselves.

Yes yes because it only tests the IDF, not the good guys Hamas, who definitely wouldn't fire but if they did it would just be Jew lies.

Doubt they'll agree, but mind you they have just topped up their hostage count with a few foreign aid workers. As for "desire for peace" just remind us who has total annihilation in their mission statement?