Israel v Hamas

[CPFCSaturn]

The title of this thread is "Israel v Hamas" which is the nub of the matter. Who do you want to win? A pro-Western democracy or elected anti-Western, anti-Jew, anti-Christian terrorists. Hmm, lets think ...

The extension of this logic is that Israel cannot be criticised for any action they may undertake in Gaza, because they're the 'good guys' in your fairy tale.

Drop a nuke? No problem, at least they're a democracy!

 

[georgenorman]

So nothing Israel has done to Palestine in the decades previous justifies October 7th, but everything Israel has done to Palestine since is justified by October 7th... do you not see that as contradictory?

If we accept your definition that this is Israel acting in self-defence, do Palestine not also have that same right?

Not at all. My point is that many (mainly of the Left) who are so critical of Israel actually want Hamas to win.

 

[eaglesdare]

So nothing Israel has done to Palestine in the decades previous justifies October 7th, but everything Israel has done to Palestine since is justified by October 7th... do you not see that as contradictory?

If we accept your definition that this is Israel acting in self-defence, do Palestine not also have that same right?

Hamas actions like firing rockets in civilian areas, using people as shields and then rejecting ceasefires do not align with your "self-defense" argument. Hamas prioritise violence over negotiation unlike Israel who haave repeatedly offered peace deals.

Israels actions aim to neutralise the terrorist threat. Like any other country would when attacks are constant.

 

[eaglesdare]

Not at all. My point is that many (mainly of the Left) who are so critical of Israel actually want Hamas to win.

Very strange that. It's the equivalent to wanting the Taliban to win after the 9/11 attacks.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Not at all. My point is that many (mainly of the Left) who are so critical of Israel actually want Hamas to win.

Yes, it's why they are happy to chant and walk alongside people with signs saying "From the River to the Sea...".

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Not at all. My point is that many (mainly of the Left) who are so critical of Israel actually want Hamas to win.

You don't just get to make up what people believe - I have not seen one post on here expressing anything that could be described as wanting Hamas 'to win'.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Hamas actions like firing rockets in civilian areas, using people as shields and then rejecting ceasefires do not align with your "self-defense" argument. Hamas prioritise violence over negotiation unlike Israel who haave repeatedly offered peace deals.

Israels actions aim to neutralise the terrorist threat. Like any other country would when attacks are constant.

So firing rockets into civilian areas isn't self-defence, but bombing the s*** out of civilian areas is self-defence..?

Your argument about rejecting ceasefires and prioritising negotiation is just demonstrably untrue - Israel have literally rejected a ceasefire in the last 24hrs!

To be clear, I don't think either side is acting in self-defence - I am being consistent.

Israel have been very clear with what their aims are - we don't need to speculate on it. They want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and claim the land for their own.

 

[eaglesdare]

So firing rockets into civilian areas isn't self-defence, but bombing the s*** out of civilian areas is self-defence..?

Your argument about rejecting ceasefires and prioritising negotiation is just demonstrably untrue - Israel have literally rejected a ceasefire in the last 24hrs!

To be clear, I don't think either side is acting in self-defence - I am being consistent.

Israel have been very clear with what their aims are - we don't need to speculate on it. They want to ethnically cleanse Gaza and claim the land for their own.

Israels aim is not to ethnic cleanse but to neutralise the terrorist organisation Hamas. A group which a lot of people on this board seem to be rooting for.

Hamas use civilians, schools, hospitals and places of worship for their bases. This makes civilian casualties tragic but often unavoidable unlike Hamas deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

Regarding ceasefires Israel has engaged in multiple rounds of talks. The recent rejection of a proposal was because Hamas altered the terms and demanded a full Israeli withdrawal and permanent ceasefire. These are conditions that no government facing an active threat would accept.

 

[DanH]

You don't just get to make up what people believe - I have not seen one post on here expressing anything that could be described as wanting Hamas 'to win'.

They have to convince themselves that everyone critical of what the Israeli government is doing is either a Hamas supporter or a raging anti-Semite to justify to themselves that their own position is the morally correct one and that Israel can continue having free reign to achieve what they have set out to do.

It's some crazy mental gymnastics.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Israels aim is not to ethnic cleanse but to neutralise the terrorist organisation Hamas. A group which a lot of people on this board seem to be rooting for.

Hamas use civilians, schools, hospitals and places of worship for their bases. This makes civilian casualties tragic but often unavoidable unlike Hamas deliberate targeting of Israeli civilians.

Regarding ceasefires Israel has engaged in multiple rounds of talks. The recent rejection of a proposal was because Hamas altered the terms and demanded a full Israeli withdrawal and permanent ceasefire. These are conditions that no government facing an active threat would accept.

Again, demonstrably untrue. Israel has made clear many times over its intention to annex Gaza - we don't need to speculate about it, just go and read the many quotes from various Israeli figures explicitly stating that.

I know it's difficult because there's no way to really still be defending Israel's conduct logically, but it is incredibly frustrating to be debating people who continue to insist that people who disagree with them must either hate jews or be rooting for terrorists - if you had any sort of sensible argument to make, or really believed what you're saying, you'd have no reason to lie about what views others are presenting.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

They have to convince themselves that everyone critical of what the Israeli government is doing is either a Hamas supporter or a raging anti-Semite to justify to themselves that their own position is the morally correct one and that Israel can continue having free reign to achieve what they have set out to do.

It's some crazy mental gymnastics.

You've worded that far better than my attempt above.

But yes, absolutely that - if their belief was really genuine, they wouldn't need to keep misrepresenting the opposite view. I think deep down they know they are on the wrong side of this, but for some reason can't just admit it.

In recent weeks, most of the governments of the west have finally started to be a bit more honest about what we're witnessing, and yet still on here people are parroting the same propaganda they were 18 months ago - still talking about self-defence at this point is almost taking the piss.

 

[eaglesdare]

Again, demonstrably untrue. Israel has made clear many times over its intention to annex Gaza - we don't need to speculate about it, just go and read the many quotes from various Israeli figures explicitly stating that.

I know it's difficult because there's no way to really still be defending Israel's conduct logically, but it is incredibly frustrating to be debating people who continue to insist that people who disagree with them must either hate jews or be rooting for terrorists - if you had any sort of sensible argument to make, or really believed what you're saying, you'd have no reason to lie about what views others are presenting.

My focus is on the facts of the conflict. Israels policy which is stated by Netanyahu is to eliminate Hamas military capabilities and secure the release of hostages and not to annex Gaza.

Israels goal is security against a terrorist group that openly calls for its destruction and is not interested in expansion.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

My focus is on the facts of the conflict. Israels policy which is stated by Netanyahu is to eliminate Hamas military capabilities and secure the release of hostages and not to annex Gaza.

Israels goal is security against a terrorist group that openly calls for its destruction and is not interested in expansion.

“I will not compromise on full Israeli security control over all the territory west of the Jordan River”

“In any future arrangement Israel needs security control over all territory west of the Jordan... this collides with the idea of sovereignty (for Palestinians). What can you do?"

"Israel is ready to end the war, under clear conditions that will ensure the safety of Israel – all the hostages come home, Hamas lays down its arms, steps down from power, its leadership is exiled from the Strip… Gaza is totally disarmed, and we carry out the Trump plan. A plan that is so correct and so revolutionary.”

All quotes from Netanyahu.

 

[HKOwen]

Hamas is directly responsible for every civilian death now, they signed up to a ceasefire then reneged on it . Only when every Hamas official and fighter is dead is there a slim chance of progress. I am far from confident the Palestinians in Gaza can be " de Hamased " in many years, if ever.

 

[eaglesdare]

“I will not compromise on full Israeli security control over all the territory west of the Jordan River”

“In any future arrangement Israel needs security control over all territory west of the Jordan... this collides with the idea of sovereignty (for Palestinians). What can you do?"

"Israel is ready to end the war, under clear conditions that will ensure the safety of Israel – all the hostages come home, Hamas lays down its arms, steps down from power, its leadership is exiled from the Strip… Gaza is totally disarmed, and we carry out the Trump plan. A plan that is so correct and so revolutionary.”

All quotes from Netanyahu.

Netanyahu’s statements about “security control west of the Jordan River” and the “Trump plan” reflect Israel’s priority of ensuring no repeat of the October 7.

The “security control” he describes isn’t about annexing Gaza or denying Palestinian rights but preventing Hamas.

The Trump plan is a proposed to demilitarised Palestinian state with Israeli security oversight not full annexation.

These quotes can be taken out of context but they respond to a reality where Hamas actions prioritise Israel’s destruction.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

My focus is on the facts of the conflict. Israels policy which is stated by Netanyahu is to eliminate Hamas military capabilities and secure the release of hostages and not to annex Gaza.

Israels goal is security against a terrorist group that openly calls for its destruction and is not interested in expansion.

And lets also deal with this second section - the implication seems to be that Israel don't openly call for the destruction of Palestine;

"Every Baby In Gaza Is An Enemy": Ex-Israeli Lawmaker's Shocking Remarks

Every child, every baby in Gaza is an enemy, far-right Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin declared on Wednesday.

www.ndtv.com

This is an Israeli politician declaring that babies are his enemy.

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly" - Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.

"Residents of Gaza are the biggest Nazis. They are our enemy. Not Hamas. We shouldn't be making this distinction." Yaniv Golan, IDF Commander.

A recent survey on Israeli news found that 53% of voters answered 'no' to the question 'Does Israel have to let humanitarian aid into Gaza?'.

This is a very recent protest in Israel:

Thousands of Israeli nationalists chant 'death to Arabs' during annual procession through Jerusalem

Chanting “Death to Arabs” and singing “May your village burn,” groups of young Israeli Jews made their way through Muslim neighborhoods of Jerusalem’s Old City

apnews.com

I'm sure we can agree that both sides are quite clearly calling for the destruction of the other.

 

[eaglesdare]

And lets also deal with this second section - the implication seems to be that Israel don't openly call for the destruction of Palestine;

"Every Baby In Gaza Is An Enemy": Ex-Israeli Lawmaker's Shocking Remarks

Every child, every baby in Gaza is an enemy, far-right Israeli politician Moshe Feiglin declared on Wednesday.

www.ndtv.com

This is an Israeli politician declaring that babies are his enemy.

"I have ordered a complete siege on the Gaza strip. There will be no electricity, no food, no fuel, everything is closed. We are fighting human animals and we act accordingly" - Israel Defense Minister Yoav Gallant.

"Residents of Gaza are the biggest Nazis. They are our enemy. Not Hamas. We shouldn't be making this distinction." Yaniv Golan, IDF Commander.

A recent survey on Israeli news found that 53% of voters answered 'no' to the question 'Does Israel have to let humanitarian aid into Gaza?'.

This is a very recent protest in Israel:

Thousands of Israeli nationalists chant 'death to Arabs' during annual procession through Jerusalem

Chanting “Death to Arabs” and singing “May your village burn,” groups of young Israeli Jews made their way through Muslim neighborhoods of Jerusalem’s Old City

apnews.com

I'm sure we can agree that both sides are quite clearly calling for the destruction of the other.

Moshe Feiglin’s remarks are extreme. he is a fringe ex-politician with no current influence.

The statement doesn’t reflect IDF policy which targets Hamas infrastructure.

The survey showing 53% of Israelis opposing aid reflects frustration with Hamas attacks.

Hamas explicitly seeks Israels annihilation. Israels goal is security and hostage recovery not genocide.

I hope that clears it up for you.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Netanyahu’s statements about “security control west of the Jordan River” and the “Trump plan” reflect Israel’s priority of ensuring no repeat of the October 7.

The “security control” he describes isn’t about annexing Gaza or denying Palestinian rights but preventing Hamas.

The Trump plan is a proposed to demilitarised Palestinian state with Israeli security oversight not full annexation.

These quotes can be taken out of context but they respond to a reality where Hamas actions prioritise Israel’s destruction.

Right, the settlers are all there for security from Hamas.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Moshe Feiglin’s remarks are extreme. he is a fringe ex-politician with no current influence.

The statement doesn’t reflect IDF policy which targets Hamas infrastructure.

The survey showing 53% of Israelis opposing aid reflects frustration with Hamas attacks.

Hamas explicitly seeks Israels annihilation. Israels goal is security and hostage recovery not genocide.

I hope that clears it up for you.

It doesn't clear anything up at all.

'Oh, don't worry about that ex-politician, he's just a bit extreme'

'Oh don't worry about the Defence Minister overtly telling you they're going to commit war crimes, that's not the OFFICIAL policy'

'Oh don't worry that 53% of the population oppose humanitarian aid, they're just frustrated.'



These pages will certainly make for interesting reading in a year or two - I wonder if doing mental gymnastics to justify and support a genocide will age well.

 

[eaglesdare]

Right, the settlers are all there for security from Hamas.

There are no Israeli settlers in Gaza. Israel fully withdrew in 2005 and dismanted all settlements. The current conflict is about security and not colonisation.