Israel v Hamas

[indianapalace85]

You still aren’t answering the questions. You are simply offering your defence of Israel’s actions.

There will be time enough later for the ICC investigation and due process. Innocent people are dying now. Action is required today. Not tomorrow or in the next 10 years!

Israel is not being held to a higher account! It is though reasonable to hold it to account. Do you? That’s the question you are ignoring.

We are all in armchairs, relying on the reports of others. Which is itself being stymied by Israel’s refusal to allow journalists into the territory.

I have though been to Israel. I was there a few weeks prior to the Hamas atrocity. So I have spent time with Israelis. Moderates, hard liners and Arabs. It might not be much, but it is something.

He only has two responses.

"October 7th was awful and that's all that matters" and "what question have I not answered?".

 

[indianapalace85]

Fighting in dense civilian areas (like Gaza, Fallujah, or Grozny) can lead to tragic mistakes or force that might appear disproportionate. However to be judge and jury in real time from your armchair on the other side of the world is ridiculous. To hold Israel to a higher account than any other country or even Hamas would show your prejudice. Let the ICC undergo its investigations and allow due process. Unless you don't believe in that? As I said above, this is the only feasible method of combat in urban warfare.

Israel hasn't been held to a higher account.

They are under the same scrutiny as everyone else.

That's why Hamas and Russia have both been condemned and arrest warrants issued for alleged war crimes.

The fact that Israel has too is clearly irrelevant to you. Most likely because it doesn't fit your agenda.

So tell me, if you can be bothered to answer this one, why is the ICC's determination of an arrest warrant for Netanyahu unjustified, if theyre held to the same investigative standards as Russia and Hamas?

 

[CPFCSaturn]

You claim to support Israel going after Hamas, yet criticise the only feasible methods available in an urban battlefield where terrorists hide among civilians in schools, mosques, and hospitals. “Very high” civilian casualties are tragic - but compare them to Fallujah, Mosul, Raqqa or Aleppo and you'll see Israel’s strike-to-civilian ratios are actually lower than many Western campaigns.

As for your ethnic cleansing claim - over 2 million Palestinians still live in Gaza, and millions more in the West Bank and Israel itself. That’s not ethnic cleansing - that’s a propaganda line you’ve swallowed.

Based on whose count?

The IDF claim not to know many civilians they've killed, so how on earth can they have a ratio?

This stuff doesn't even hold up to the most basic of scrutiny.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

It fascinates me that the people you mention have such deep rooted care for a population they have no link to on the other side of the world in a country they would never visit. One that would possibly lead to a threat on their lives if they did. All the Middle Eastern conflicts with Muslims getting slaughtered by airstrikes (and indeed real genocide in Africa) seem to be of no interest. It's almost like there was no logic behind this passion. Like an ideology they follow or interest in the world's oldest hatred that rears its ugly head today.

It fascinates me that you are so supportive of a genocidal regime on the other side of the world.

It fascinates me how willing you are to lie and distort in defence of acts that any reasonable person can see are beyond the pale.

It fascinates me that you repeatedly resort to shameless accusations of anti semitism to try and prop up your untenable position.

Its not some alternative fringe position to be appalled at Israel’s conduct at this stage - the vast vast majority of people, including many previous supporters of Israel, are condemning their conduct. Nearly every western governments, the UN, the ICC, every aid agency in the world, every human rights agency in the world, all share the view that Israel’s conduct is at best disgraceful and at worst genocidal.

As a supporter of a genocide, the fringe position is very much yours. That you find people who are appalled at the massacre of so many children 'fascinating' speaks far more to your morals than it does mine.

 

[ASCPFC]

Israel hasn't been held to a higher account.

They are under the same scrutiny as everyone else.

That's why Hamas and Russia have both been condemned and arrest warrants issued for alleged war crimes.

The fact that Israel has too is clearly irrelevant to you. Most likely because it doesn't fit your agenda.

So tell me, if you can be bothered to answer this one, why is the ICC's determination of an arrest warrant for Netanyahu unjustified, if theyre held to the same investigative standards as Russia and Hamas?

It's completely naive to think that the ICC means anything at all. They can use all of the rhetoric they like but that's what it is. None of the world powers are part of it. It's like the moral police but people only listen to it when they want to. There are hundreds of atrocities they ignore due to their funding. It's as apolitical as a MAGA hat.

 

[indianapalace85]

It fascinates me that you are so supportive of a genocidal regime on the other side of the world.

It fascinates me how willing you are to lie and distort in defence of acts that any reasonable person can see are beyond the pale.

It fascinates me that you repeatedly resort to shameless accusations of anti semitism to try and prop up your untenable position.

Its not some alternative fringe position to be appalled at Israel’s conduct at this stage - the vast vast majority of people, including many previous supporters of Israel, are condemning their conduct. Nearly every western governments, the UN, the ICC, every aid agency in the world, every human rights agency in the world, all share the view that Israel’s conduct is at best disgraceful and at worst genocidal.

As a supporter of a genocide, the fringe position is very much yours.

All you'll get are the following responses:

a) yeah but what about October 7th? You must hate Jews.
b) Hamas are hiding everywhere, it's necessary collatteral
c) what question have I not answered?
d) it isn't genocide, you're anti-semetic.
e) if you think Israel are the enemy then you must hate Jews and celebrate women being raped and burning beheaded babies.
f) I can't answer that, I'm on holiday. Meanwhile, here's an Isreali news article proving Hamas were at the beach cafe.
g) The BBC can't be trusted or the ICC.

 

[indianapalace85]

It's completely naive to think that the ICC means anything at all. They can use all of the rhetoric they like but that's what it is. None of the world powers are part of it. It's like the moral police but people only listen to it when they want to. There are hundreds of atrocities they ignore due to their funding. It's as apolitical as a MAGA hat.

I don't think you quite understand the functionality of the ICC.

And please provide evidence of any one of the "hundreds of atrocities they ignore due to funding."

 

[ASCPFC]

I don't think you quite understand the functionality of the ICC.

And please provide evidence of any one of the "hundreds of atrocities they ignore due to funding.

Judging by your posts, I don't think you understand much at all.

They ignore anything China do - so look up any of that. As the court is funded by Chinese proxies. Chinese Muslims - nothing to see here. Hong Kong - nothing to see there.
Anything in South Africa - Chinese proxy, nothing to see there. Anything in the middle East such as Yemen. Nothing to see there. Saudi Arabia ally of China. Death sentences in Middle East - nothing to see there.
I could pretty much look up any genocide or atrocity and find the ICC didn't care; they're completely political and selective.

So I wouldn't hold your breath on what they say as no one except the innocent minded will care.

 

[ASCPFC]

The ICC at 20: Double standards have no place in international justice

The Ukraine investigation has shown what the ICC is capable of, and that same approach must be applied to other situations like Afghanistan.

www.amnesty.org

 

[indianapalace85]

Judging by your posts, I don't think you understand much at all.

They ignore anything China do - so look up any of that. As the court is funded by Chinese proxies. Chinese Muslims - nothing to see here. Hong Kong - nothing to see there.
Anything in South Africa - Chinese proxy, nothing to see there. Anything in the middle East such as Yemen. Nothing to see there. Saudi Arabia ally of China. Death sentences in Middle East - nothing to see there.
I could pretty much look up any genocide or atrocity and find the ICC didn't care; they're completely political and selective.

So I wouldn't hold your breath on what they say as no one except the innocent minded will care.

As I apparently know nothing, and you know everything, I'm surprised that your wisdom hasn't pointed out that the ICC have investigated South Africa but face legal action from the US.

South Africa regrets US sanctions against 4 International Criminal Court judges, calls them 'affront' to justice

Sanctions, along with those previously imposed on ICC prosecutor, 'represent a direct affront' to international justice principles and rule of law, says Foreign Ministry - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

As for China, rightly or wrongly, they can't act because China is not part of the Rome Statute so they have no legal jurisdiction to pursue it.

But then you know that right, because you're smarter than everyone else.

 

[ASCPFC]

As I apparently know nothing, and you know everything, I'm surprised that your wisdom hasn't pointed out that the ICC have investigated South Africa but face legal action from the US.

South Africa regrets US sanctions against 4 International Criminal Court judges, calls them 'affront' to justice

Sanctions, along with those previously imposed on ICC prosecutor, 'represent a direct affront' to international justice principles and rule of law, says Foreign Ministry - Anadolu Ajansı

www.aa.com.tr

As for China, rightly or wrongly, they can't act because China is not part of the Rome Statute so they have no legal jurisdiction to pursue it.

But then you know that right, because you're smarter than everyone else.

Israel is not part of it either.

 

[indianapalace85]

Israel is not part of it either.

That's because Palestine is as they invoked that opportunity in 2015, which means the ICC have jurisdiction to be able to investigate Gaza.

Next?

 

[ASCPFC]

That's because Palestine is as they invoked that opportunity in 2015, which means the ICC have jurisdiction to be able to investigate Gaza.

Next?

It's a double standard you clearly can't see. There is no next. Your reply in itself clearly showed a political bias at the ICC but I guess you also didn't notice that.
You rely on them as much as you like. Call them when there's an atrocity against you. They'll spring into action won't they - they're like superman on steroids. Incredibly useful organisation that clearly has made people think twice about genocide.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You still aren’t answering the questions. You are simply offering your defence of Israel’s actions.

There will be time enough later for the ICC investigation and due process. Innocent people are dying now. Action is required today. Not tomorrow or in the next 10 years!

Israel is not being held to a higher account! It is though reasonable to hold it to account. Do you? That’s the question you are ignoring.

We are all in armchairs, relying on the reports of others. Which is itself being stymied by Israel’s refusal to allow journalists into the territory.

I have though been to Israel. I was there a few weeks prior to the Hamas atrocity. So I have spent time with Israelis. Moderates, hard liners and Arabs. It might not be much, but it is something.

You mean I'm not giving you the answers you want! Take action today? Real wars don't end on your emotional timeline.

Israel is no different to the UK, US or any other military when they restrict journalist access. Or are you suggesting a different set of rules for the Jews? And Hamas controls the information coming out of Gaza – you're not demanding transparency from them!

Israel is uniquely and disproportionately scrutinised by international institutions, media, and activists far beyond what’s applied to other democracies or brutal regimes. There are many examples of this.

Visiting Israel before October 7 doesn't make you an expert. It's like visiting New York in September 2001 and claiming insight into 9/11.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Israel hasn't been held to a higher account.

They are under the same scrutiny as everyone else.

That's why Hamas and Russia have both been condemned and arrest warrants issued for alleged war crimes.

The fact that Israel has too is clearly irrelevant to you. Most likely because it doesn't fit your agenda.

So tell me, if you can be bothered to answer this one, why is the ICC's determination of an arrest warrant for Netanyahu unjustified, if theyre held to the same investigative standards as Russia and Hamas?

A quick online search can pull up clear, documented examples of Israel being held to a higher standard than other nations in similar or worse conflicts:

1. UN Resolutions and Investigations
Israel is the subject of more UN Human Rights Council resolutions than any other country, including regimes like North Korea, Iran, China, or Syria.

UNHRC Agenda Item 7: Israel is the only country with a dedicated permanent agenda item, meaning it is singled out automatically for criticism at every session — no other country is treated this way.

By contrast, Syria killed over 500,000 people in a civil war, including mass gassings, yet has not received anywhere near the same volume of UNHRC scrutiny or special agenda items.

2. ICC Investigations
The International Criminal Court (ICC) opened a formal war crimes investigation into Israel’s conduct, including settlement policies and Gaza military operations.

Meanwhile, China's repression of Uyghur Muslims (forced sterilization, camps, torture) and Russia’s war crimes in Ukraine were slower to draw formal ICC action — despite far more public, documented atrocities.

3. Media and Public Discourse
When Israel conducts military operations in dense urban areas (e.g. Gaza), it's frequently accused of "genocide" or "ethnic cleansing."

In contrast, during U.S.-led coalition bombings in Mosul, Raqqa, and Fallujah, which caused tens of thousands of civilian deaths, there was no equivalent global outcry, and certainly not accusations of genocide.

Double standard: Israel is expected to fight a brutal enemy hiding in civilian areas with near surgical precision, while other democracies get a pass for “collateral damage.”

4. Humanitarian Aid Expectations
Israel is expected to supply power, water, food, and medicine to Gaza — even during a war with a terror group that just massacred its citizens.

No other nation at war is expected to resupply the territory of an enemy force actively firing rockets at its civilians.

Did Ukraine supply Russian-occupied Donbas with electricity or aid? No. Were they expected to? Also no.

5. Moral Language
Israel is regularly accused of “apartheid” by critics, despite its Arab citizens having full voting rights, seats in parliament, judgeships, and free press.

Meanwhile, countries like Saudi Arabia (zero democratic rights) and Iran (executions for dissent, no minority rights) escape the same moral branding in mainstream discourse.

 

[Forest Hillbilly]

As of two weeks ago, the IDF were directly responsible for killing approximately 200 Palestinian journalists, up to that point. Obviously the subsequent attack on a cafe used by journalists, adds to that number.
We all know journalists have bias, and are leaned on by Governments to present news reports a certain way.
Outright targeting and killing of journalists,it's not warfare. It's murder

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

You mean I'm not giving you the answers you want! Take action today? Real wars don't end on your emotional timeline.

Israel is no different to the UK, US or any other military when they restrict journalist access. Or are you suggesting a different set of rules for the Jews? And Hamas controls the information coming out of Gaza – you're not demanding transparency from them!

Israel is uniquely and disproportionately scrutinised by international institutions, media, and activists far beyond what’s applied to other democracies or brutal regimes. There are many examples of this.

Visiting Israel before October 7 doesn't make you an expert. It's like visiting New York in September 2001 and claiming insight into 9/11.

You aren’t giving any answers to the actual questions!

I’ll tell you whether I like them, or not, if and when you do.

You cannot end a war in a day, even Trump has been taught that, but you can take action to mitigate the unnecessary harm being caused and start the movement towards a solution. Every journey etc!

Israel is very different to both the UK and US when it comes to journalist access. No one can forget the journalists who were embedded in the wars in Iraq and Falklands. Just as examples.

If the only information coming out of a war zone is being provided by your adversary, and you aren’t allowing independent verification, then who do you blame? The journalists do their best. They use contacts within Gaza to give eye witness reports to verify what’s been reported. Often medical volunteers or aid workers. Most times they do confirm what Hamas have said, which then sets up the IDF as spreading propaganda. Israel has already lost the information war.

I didn’t, and don’t, claim to be an expert. Only that I have a little first hand experience of Israel, and its people, just before this happened. Which is more than most. Perhaps even more than you!

There were many protests going on whilst I was there directed at the Netanyahu government’s attempt to take over the Supreme Court. They are politically split down the middle between those who see all of the territory as their God given right, and the pragmatists who seek a compromise. Change the government and a solution would follow.

 

[Penge Eagle]

You aren’t giving any answers to the actual questions!

I’ll tell you whether I like them, or not, if and when you do.

You cannot end a war in a day, even Trump has been taught that, but you can take action to mitigate the unnecessary harm being caused and start the movement towards a solution. Every journey etc!

Israel is very different to both the UK and US when it comes to journalist access. No one can forget the journalists who were embedded in the wars in Iraq and Falklands. Just as examples.

If the only information coming out of a war zone is being provided by your adversary, and you aren’t allowing independent verification, then who do you blame? The journalists do their best. They use contacts within Gaza to give eye witness reports to verify what’s been reported. Often medical volunteers or aid workers. Most times they do confirm what Hamas have said, which then sets up the IDF as spreading propaganda. Israel has already lost the information war.

I didn’t, and don’t, claim to be an expert. Only that I have a little first hand experience of Israel, and its people, just before this happened. Which is more than most. Perhaps even more than you!

There were many protests going on whilst I was there directed at the Netanyahu government’s attempt to take over the Supreme Court. They are politically split down the middle between those who see all of the territory as their God given right, and the pragmatists who seek a compromise. Change the government and a solution would follow.

Ok, what questions have I not answered then?

 

[georgenorman]

It's a war. Jews v Muslims. Democratic, West-facing, socially progressive Israel v Non-democratic, West-hating, Dictatorial, socially repressive Islamists. Who do you want to prevail?

 

[ASCPFC]

You aren’t giving any answers to the actual questions!

I’ll tell you whether I like them, or not, if and when you do.

You cannot end a war in a day, even Trump has been taught that, but you can take action to mitigate the unnecessary harm being caused and start the movement towards a solution. Every journey etc!

Israel is very different to both the UK and US when it comes to journalist access. No one can forget the journalists who were embedded in the wars in Iraq and Falklands. Just as examples.

If the only information coming out of a war zone is being provided by your adversary, and you aren’t allowing independent verification, then who do you blame? The journalists do their best. They use contacts within Gaza to give eye witness reports to verify what’s been reported. Often medical volunteers or aid workers. Most times they do confirm what Hamas have said, which then sets up the IDF as spreading propaganda. Israel has already lost the information war.

I didn’t, and don’t, claim to be an expert. Only that I have a little first hand experience of Israel, and its people, just before this happened. Which is more than most. Perhaps even more than you!

There were many protests going on whilst I was there directed at the Netanyahu government’s attempt to take over the Supreme Court. They are politically split down the middle between those who see all of the territory as their God given right, and the pragmatists who seek a compromise. Change the government and a solution would follow.

Elections are next October. I don't know - but I suspect Nethanyahu will be seen as too Zionist for some, but not hard enough by others. I don't necessarily see his coalition sticking together. But October might be quite an emotional date.