Flags.........& Politics.

Wisbech Eagle said:
I cannot recall him ever offering an opinion on that.

I do know that when he was locked below decks and his ship was being hit by bombs dropped from Japanese aircraft, then listing until it eventually sunk with him and a few mates being able to free the escape hatch, get into the water and be rescued, he wasn’t too fond of them.

Nor was he when trapped in Singapore for 6 weeks awaiting evacuation with the advancing forces getting ever closer. I know this because I possess a multi page account of the attack he typed whilst there. An account which was an important source for the definitive book detailing the disaster.
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Those ships were torpedoed. Bombing was unsuccessful iirc
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
I cannot recall him ever offering an opinion on that.

I do know that when he was locked below decks and his ship was being hit by bombs dropped from Japanese aircraft, then listing until it eventually sunk with him and a few mates being able to free the escape hatch, get into the water and be rescued, he wasn’t too fond of them.

Nor was he when trapped in Singapore for 6 weeks awaiting evacuation with the advancing forces getting ever closer. I know this because I possess a multi page account of the attack he typed whilst there. An account which was an important source for the definitive book detailing the disaster.
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I respect his service but the point remains there was no more moral aspect to the war than there was for those young men who served in Aden, Malaysia, Korea or indeed the First World War.
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
My father was on the staff of Admiral Phillips and handled communications between him and the Admiralty. Clearly they were secret and they remained so but his view of Churchill was unequivocal as it was of the Admiral, who he always said was grossly unfairly treated.

From all I know Phillips was pleading for ground based air cover to be provided before leaving port but was ordered to do so regardless to try to intercept the Japanese landing craft.
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He had air cover from land, they didn't call it in though

You can't blame Churchill, they have to fight a war and often that means against the odds.

You should read "the ultra secret" by Winterbotham, you'd realise that some battles are fought even at a loss.

Singapore though, a disgrace. The worst defeat since Sir Henry Simmerson lost the Kings Colours of the 95th Essex to a single squadron of French Dragoons during a minor skirmish in 1804 which is well documented here

 
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Wisbech Eagle said:
Your memory fails you. I would never have criticised my father as a racist. I think you must be referring to my remarks about my mother’s attitude towards the first wave of immigrants from the Caribbean. Which weren’t positive and, with hindsight, were ignorant. My father had traveled all over the world during his time in the RN so had much more experience.
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I'll take you at your word, as that does seem to chime better now you type it, apologies.

Wisbech Eagle said:
My father didn’t like Churchill either and blamed him for sending the Prince of Wales to the far east without air cover, its subsequent sinking and the loss of so many of his shipmates. He refused to vote for him. For once I agree with you. He had some very tough decisions to make.
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Certainly.
 
Spindle said:
He had air cover from land, they didn't call it in though

You can't blame Churchill, they have to fight a war and often that means against the odds.

You should read "the ultra secret" by Winterbotham, you'd realise that some battles are fought even at a loss.

Singapore though, a disgrace. The worst defeat since Sir Henry Simmerson lost the Kings Colours of the 95th Essex to a single squadron of French Dragoons during a minor skirmish in 1804 which is well documented here

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There was some ineffective, very old, and inadequate air cover that was never going to protect the ships. Why wasn’t it called? Who gave the order not to call it? Who decided the ship’s own anti aircraft guns would be sufficient and the aircraft needed to be saved to protect Singapore?

I’ll let you guess, but it wasn’t Phillips. He knew he was sailing into a disaster.
 
Spindle said:
He had air cover from land, they didn't call it in though

You can't blame Churchill, they have to fight a war and often that means against the odds.

You should read "the ultra secret" by Winterbotham, you'd realise that some battles are fought even at a loss.

Singapore though, a disgrace. The worst defeat since Sir Henry Simmerson lost the Kings Colours of the 95th Essex to a single squadron of French Dragoons during a minor skirmish in 1804 which is well documented here

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I half agree with that....but then again, I think a lot of people regarded Churchill as a lover of war.....or at least not that bothered about reducing losses.

War is about killing people and people often forget the nitty gritty and what that actually involves.

They can blame Churchill, hell they can blame whoever they like, these are the people fighting and dying they can blame or not blame whoever they like.

Maybe if you're a professional soldier you'd have a more resigned attitude towards it but if you come from civvy street.....Yeah, I suspect you aren't that happy to be there unless you're some political activist.

My grandfather certainly didn't like Churchill as I said....but I don't remember my uncle's attitude towards him or if he even said.

They did their bit regardless.
 
Stirlingsays said:
Mmmm....I wonder what your father would think of you considering your 'racism' comments about him early on in your Hol journey. Once called out on it he now occasionally appears in heroic fashion in your writings.....No doubt he'd agree with everything you think.

Well, if your back story is true then I have respect for your father's service.

I was lucky enough to know my grandfather and great uncle up until they died in the early eighties.....both fought in the war, saw most of the action in Italy. I....as you might expect, was an eager youngster wanting to hear their war stories and they did tell me some of it.

My uncle would talk about it less but my grandfather would talk about it....he suffered a war wound that troubled him until death....Uncle got through it without injury though lost friends.

They hated it.
They didn't want to go to war and weren't invested into any of the propaganda or justifications. It was just expected and part of the duty expected from men of the time.....they didn't complain about that.

Grandfather didn't like Churchill and blamed him a lot for stuff, said he got a lot of people killed.....It greatly surprised me at the time and I never did find out more than that.....at the time I thought Churchill was great and did up until a few years ago, where now I'm more mixed about it.....He had very difficult decisions.

Anyway, the sense I was left with was that it wasn't heroic, it was just how things were.
They weren't that political but being working class they were Labour men....unions were strong back then and I think one of them worked in the print.

But that was very different Labour from Labour today.
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As I have said before, his father would be ashamed of him and rightly so.
 
HKOwen said:
As I have said before, his father would be ashamed of him and rightly so.
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I remember criticising him for having a go at the opinions of his parent....who was obviously his mother (though I incorrectly remembered it as his father). Purely on the basis of not slagging off blood to strangers. But maybe this is influenced by my own family attitudes. Obviously other families can become very hostile to each other.

Now he may be completely kosher about all of it, only he knows how his old man regarded him so when it comes to family I'll pay him the respect I think we all deserve on just staying off that territory.

I doubt that there were many modern attitudes going around back in the 40s but I can only speak from what I remember of my own family.
 
Teddy Eagle said:
Of course but not your reason to serve in the first place.
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Not what was being discussed. It was their post war attitudes that were. They weren’t given any choice when called up but having fought against tyranny arriving here uninvited wouldn’t want to see it imposed on them from within. Electing a Labour government tending to lend weight to that.
 
Wisbech Eagle said:
Not what was being discussed. It was their post war attitudes that were. They weren’t given any choice when called up but having fought against tyranny arriving here uninvited wouldn’t want to see it imposed on them from within. Electing a Labour government tending to lend weight to that.
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The country was facing an enemy threatening invasion and the politics involved weren't the primary factor so trying to paint the war as a reaction to right wing extremism is just wrong. Idealists went on Spain to fight Franco but there weren't that many of them; the highest estimate is 4000 but it could have been 2000 and some of them fought on Franco's side.
 
Teddy Eagle said:
The country was facing an enemy threatening invasion and the politics involved weren't the primary factor so trying to paint the war as a reaction to right wing extremism is just wrong. Idealists went on Spain to fight Franco but there weren't that many of them; the highest estimate is 4000 but it could have been 2000 and some of them fought on Franco's side.
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Flags
 
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