Israel v Hamas

[ASCPFC]

War crimes was my point.

Fair enough. I presume you realise that truthfully hardly anyone was actually done for war crimes. And those that were mostly got let out quietly. Apart from a couple of high profile ones. The Japanese war criminals benefitted hugely from the bombs being dropped. It meant there was a feeling Japan had been punished enough. Similar to Germany in some ways, but it benefited more from being needed as an ally in the Cold War.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Yes, look how Britain benefitted and Japan and Germany did not.

Decline was the price we paid for victory, and sometimes one does wonder if the commitment shown by our forces wasn't rewarded with betrayal.

 

[chris123]

Fair enough. I presume you realise that truthfully hardly anyone was actually done for war crimes. And those that were mostly got let out quietly. Apart from a couple of high profile ones. The Japanese war criminals benefitted hugely from the bombs being dropped. It meant there was a feeling Japan had been punished enough. Similar to Germany in some ways, but it benefited more from being needed as an ally in the Cold War.

The International Military Tribunal and Nuremberg Trials, so yes truthfully

 

[ASCPFC]

The International Military Tribunal and Nuremberg Trials, so yes truthfully

Look into it.

 

[silvertop]

Look into it.

You're absolutely correct.

27 million deaths of which millions of non combatants were deliberately murdered by the NAZIs. A pitiful 37 prosecutions at Nuremburg. The people who ruled Germany before the war largely ruled the country after it.

Japan - same schtick. Thus, there was a Unit 731 expressly set up by the Japanese in China to calmly carry out experimentation on live Chinese and allied prisoners - men, women and children. Acts were committed by humans on humans that are beyond credibility. The US knew all about it and who committed it. No prosecutions. Instead, the general thought was why waste all this profitable scientific work and remove the very people who can interpret the data. Macarthur personally endorsed that policy.

 

[Spindle]

I have no idea! I haven’t been there.

What I do know is that children seeing their families blown apart are going to be traumatised and unlikely to feel kindly towards those who did it.

Here you are, you don't have to go there to see some of the brainwashing. I've brought it here for you. Skip past the adults though please because I don't want you making an excuse for all of this saying it's a biased channel etc. Just watch the raw footage from Palestinian childrens TV.

 

[HKOwen]

It’s not a case of ‘not accepting’ it - I think it’s just a childishly simple ‘talking point’.

Ok, the terrorists won’t act rationally and they won’t surrender… so now the military superpower is ok to crack on with war crimes? Is that a serious point?

So you agree if that happened the fighting would stop, that's all I am asking.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

CPFC Saturn cannot agree with this premise because like many on here it would mean admitting Hamas are 100% wrong and evil etc which I believe he doesn't accept and feels somehow they are the plucky fighters against Israeli oppression.

All the semantics and whataboutery won't change this.

 

[Spindle]

It’s not a case of ‘not accepting’ it - I think it’s just a childishly simple ‘talking point’.

Ok, the terrorists won’t act rationally and they won’t surrender… so now the military superpower is ok to crack on with war crimes? Is that a serious point?

Yeah, that's what I would expect of any serious military power, otherwise they are not a power are they. You have no solutions, NONE. You just waffle on and on about people being killed but point the finger at the IDF for bloody everything.

 

[Stirlingsays]

You're absolutely correct.

27 million deaths of which millions of non combatants were deliberately murdered by the NAZIs. A pitiful 37 prosecutions at Nuremburg. The people who ruled Germany before the war largely ruled the country after it.

Japan - same schtick. Thus, there was a Unit 731 expressly set up by the Japanese in China to calmly carry out experimentation on live Chinese and allied prisoners - men, women and children. Acts were committed by humans on humans that are beyond credibility. The US knew all about it and who committed it. No prosecutions. Instead, the general thought was why waste all this profitable scientific work and remove the very people who can interpret the data. Macarthur personally endorsed that policy.

Sometimes quick easy moral answers that don't take account of the context of the situation aren't as sensible as they appear......You think other options weren't considered?...deeply....They were, in your WW2 example.....It included destroying Germany as a nation (the part the Allies had)....that was a proposal placed at at the very top level and considered.

Quick easy moral decisions were taken when they removed the Ba'ath party from Iraq which immediately plunged that country into an insurgency that killed many of our troops and morphed into far worse outcomes.....Yeah, getting rid of Gaddafi was sensible wasn't it.....Nasty man needs to go go....Problem is it introduced a never ending civil war and brought back slave markets.

Moralists often create worse situations because of black and white thinking that ignores realities of time and place.

Utilitarianism isn't perfect but it also has the benefit of not being stupid.

You very very rarely win a game of chess without losing pieces.

 

[HKOwen]

Sometimes quick easy moral answers that don't take account of the context of the situation aren't as sensible as they appear......You think other options weren't considered?...deeply....They were, in your WW2 example.....It included destroying Germany as a nation (the part the Allies had)....that was a proposal placed at at the very top level and considered.

Quick easy moral decisions were taken when they removed the Ba'ath party from Iraq which immediately plunged that country into an insurgency that killed many of our troops and morphed into far worse outcomes.....Yeah, getting rid of Gaddafi was sensible wasn't it.....Nasty man needs to go go....Problem is it introduced a never ending civil war and bring back slave markets.

Moralists often create worse situations because of black and white thinking that ignores realities of time and place.

Utilitarianism isn't perfect but it also has the benefit of not being stupid.

You very very rarely win a game of chess without losing pieces.

So now you're saying the life of a Palestinian is worth no more than a chess piece and the genocide is all a game...............

Just saving some time for the usual crowd to write virtuous posts

 

[HKOwen]

You're absolutely correct.

27 million deaths of which millions of non combatants were deliberately murdered by the NAZIs. A pitiful 37 prosecutions at Nuremburg. The people who ruled Germany before the war largely ruled the country after it.

Japan - same schtick. Thus, there was a Unit 731 expressly set up by the Japanese in China to calmly carry out experimentation on live Chinese and allied prisoners - men, women and children. Acts were committed by humans on humans that are beyond credibility. The US knew all about it and who committed it. No prosecutions. Instead, the general thought was why waste all this profitable scientific work and remove the very people who can interpret the data. Macarthur personally endorsed that policy.

let's not forget Uncle Joe Stalin if we're looking at 20th century, Russian war crime convictions......zero

 

[Stirlingsays]

So now you're saying the life of a Palestinian is worth no more than a chess piece and the genocide is all a game...............

Just saving some time for the usual crowd to write virtuous posts

I was answering the logic of the post referred to.

My thoughts on Palestine/Israel weren't a part of that.

The morality question of what is going on there is different from the reality of might is right.

If you removed Israel from the region within a couple of decades you'd have a new version of the Ottoman empire, which would be very powerful, very Islamic and very anti western.

 

[HKOwen]

I was answering the logic of the post referred to.

My thoughts on Palestine/Israel weren't a part of that.

The morality question of what is going on there is different from the reality of might is right.

My post was satire

 

[Stirlingsays]

My post was satire

Forgive me, I'm tired and off to bed.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

Here you are, you don't have to go there to see some of the brainwashing. I've brought it here for you. Skip past the adults though please because I don't want you making an excuse for all of this saying it's a biased channel etc. Just watch the raw footage from Palestinian childrens TV.

There is something very odd here. Sahar TV is an Iranian propaganda channel. Why would they promote this idea?

I don’t doubt for a moment that the children in Gaza are currently taught the way that Hamas wants. They are after all the government. It’s not the point I am making. The way the Israelis are behaving is reinforcing, and not challenging, these ideas. They are cementing the problems into the next generations.

If they showed them that the messages being taught to them are false then the circle gets broken. The Israelis are not being very smart!

 

[Teddy Eagle]

There is something very odd here. Sahar TV is an Iranian propaganda channel. Why would they promote this idea?

I don’t doubt for a moment that the children in Gaza are currently taught the way that Hamas wants. They are after all the government. It’s not the point I am making. The way the Israelis are behaving is reinforcing, and not challenging, these ideas. They are cementing the problems into the next generations.

If they showed them that the messages being taught to them are false then the circle gets broken. The Israelis are not being very smart!

They would promote it in order to undermine American attitudes and reinforce their own.

 

[ASCPFC]

There is something very odd here. Sahar TV is an Iranian propaganda channel. Why would they promote this idea?

I don’t doubt for a moment that the children in Gaza are currently taught the way that Hamas wants. They are after all the government. It’s not the point I am making. The way the Israelis are behaving is reinforcing, and not challenging, these ideas. They are cementing the problems into the next generations.

If they showed them that the messages being taught to them are false then the circle gets broken. The Israelis are not being very smart!

The Nazi youth took years of deprogramming. Unfortunately most had to be killed on the battlefield as they would not surrender. They were the most zealous units.

 

[Stirlingsays]

The Nazi youth took years of deprogramming. Unfortunately most had to be killed on the battlefield as they would not surrender. They were the most zealous units.

Yeah but lets not talk about Ukraine.

 

[Wisbech Eagle]

The Nazi youth took years of deprogramming. Unfortunately most had to be killed on the battlefield as they would not surrender. They were the most zealous units.

Is there a Hamas equivalent?

I first spent time in Germany in 1959 when I mixed with the local lads, who indeed were still quite bitter. Later in life, during my business career, I spent a lot of time there and the attitudes were totally different. The transformation to a functioning, caring and open society in which I was not just welcomed but felt completely at home was a tremendous achievement.

So it can be done. It takes time and effort.

 

[Teddy Eagle]

Is there a Hamas equivalent?

I first spent time in Germany in 1959 when I mixed with the local lads, who indeed were still quite bitter. Later in life, during my business career, I spent a lot of time there and the attitudes were totally different. The transformation to a functioning, caring and open society in which I was not just welcomed but felt completely at home was a tremendous achievement.

So it can be done. It takes time and effort.

There's a huge difference between political and religious/cultural indoctrination.