Israel v Iran

[georgenorman]

God forbid! The Shah was a brutal autocrat in the mould of Assad who the West nobly propped up in return for a cheap flow of oil. Media presentation followed the standard Cold War model.

Assad - supported by Russia = evil.
Shah- supported by West = good.

But you are right about the square peg of forcing Western democracy on any country in that region. However there are models of countries that adopt a form of government more natural to local culture that work for them. Oman. Jordan. Hardly Scandinavia, but stable, quietly getting on with life and a long way down Amnesty International's hit list. Would not the West and most Iranians bite your hands off for that?

The Shah's regime was nowhere near as repressive and bad as the current extreme Islamist regime. It is a similar comparison with the Tsar's and Communism. The Left of course unerringly support the worse guys.

 

[HKOwen]

The Shah's regime was nowhere near as repressive and bad as the current extreme Islamist regime. It is a similar comparison with the Tsar's and Communism. The Left of course unerringly support the worse guys.

It was not " as bad " but that's a low bar. Plenty of political murders and repression of anyone anti Shah, but, there was a violent marxist insurgency as well and we know when you have that kind of situation people will do terrible things.

That's the way the country is, was and may well be going forward.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

The only side Netanyahu is on is his own. Everything he does is purely to keep himself in power and out of court.

The enemy of our enemy, if you like.

He doesn't do anything for the West, but what he is doing suits the West right now.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

They are breaking all that 'international law', security council and the other b0llocks all these clowns went on about for years to justify wars.

We heard little else during the neo con wars and now when it's inconvenient it's barely mentioned.

I don't support this because I'm not a neo con.....unfortunately Trump is.....after lying about it. I also think it's the wrong chosen path for Israel's best interests....but it's a garden path they have gone down.

All the hot heads seem to think that this is going to end well......I don't see it myself. But I certainly hope they are right and I'm wrong.

But I as I've said for many years on the forum.....I don't support starting wars that I'm not personally prepared to fight in......Personally, I think lots of old men just like seeing sh1t burn because it costs them nothing......Well it does but it's hidden costs not overtly plain to them.

I know you don't advocate military action, and in principle I agree.
In this case however, we might be preventing a nuclear exchange sometime in the near future.

On cannot know outcomes for certain, unless someone has supernatural insight, so decisions are based on intelligence, experience and probability.

Personally, I don't trust Iran an inch, and I'm certain that nuclear weapons capability is their goal. That cannot be allowed to happen.
This scenario was always going to happen in time.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

He's not correct. They have been under a brutal regime of 1 leader. Doesn't mean it's what is wanted or normal or anything. Name a country where the majority population WANTS a hardline regime to arrive? They usually don't know what is coming, can't do anything about it or they've been lied to.

Before that overthrow Iran had a lot of liberty, a quick google and image search shows that clearly.

I'm sure they would like to cast off the fundamentalist cabal that rules them now, but I doubt they want to be ruled from Washington instead.

Letting your hair down again is one thing, but Americana won't be welcome anytime soon.

 

[Spindle]

List acts of terrorism sponsored by Iran outside the Middle East.

So in that case why do you give a s*** about the people in Gaza if it doesn't matter because they are only in the middle east 🙄 Is it "because Jew"?


But since you mention it, actual attacks in these states
Argentina
Denmark
France
India
Panama
Bulgaria
Canada
Kenya
Thailand
Bosnia
Tanzania
Germany
Nigeria


Attempts or foiled plots in these states
Netherlands
Sweden
USA

They are also connected to Al Quaida, 8 of the 10 9/11 attackers had passed through Iran prior to entering the USA, and 2 Iranian intelligence defectors testified that Iranian intelligence knew of the forthcoming attack.

DEATH TO ISRAEL, DEATH TO USA, DEATH TO UK

Lol you don't have to get up early in the morning to refute any of the pro Palestine mob on here do you 😀

 

[Spindle]

I'm sure they would like to cast off the fundamentalist cabal that rules them now, but I doubt they want to be ruled from Washington instead.

Letting your hair down again is one thing, but Americana won't be welcome anytime soon.

I never said they did, but I'm sure they don't want to be spending all their oil money on nukes, oppression and war.

 

[Penge Eagle]

List acts of terrorism sponsored by Iran outside the Middle East.

You're not defending them are you?

All listed here: Iran and state-sponsored terrorism - Wikipedia

 

[kevlee]

Imagine being so wrapped up in hating the west that you say something like the above.

https://snhr.org/blog/2024/12/20/summary-of-the-assad-regimes-crimes-against-the-syrian-people-over-the-last-14-years/

Human rights violations during the Gaddafi regime - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Crimes committed during the regime of Saddam Hussein

The European Union Agency for Asylum - EUAA is an agency of the European Union mandated with supporting Member States in applying the package of EU laws that governs asylum and international protection.

euaa.europa.eu

well you’ve swerved the point there haven’t you!
Who said the dictators were angels? The way they governed is in the title.
Are you seriously suggesting the aftermaths of Libya Iraq and Syria are more stable in economic and day the day life than before?? I don’t think so. A vacuum filled by warring militias and Islamic fundamentalists of differing views and the resulting debris have been landing on our beaches in the tens of thousands.

 

[Spindle]

Got it. Unless the regime change is so seamless that it doesn't create a jot of upheaval then stick with the dictator.

 

[Stirlingsays]

2 terror attacks on Christian churches in Syria today.....but you know it's only Christians and nobody gives a monkeys about them.

 

[georgenorman]

2 terror attacks on Christian churches in Syria today.....but you know it's only Christians and nobody gives a monkeys about them.

Better get Wisbech over there to give them a couple of lessons on Peace, Love and Understanding.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I know you don't advocate military action, and in principle I agree.
In this case however, we might be preventing a nuclear exchange sometime in the near future.

Don't believe any of that stuff it's mostly misdirection, Iran could buy nuclear weapons pretty easily if they wanted to, especially now. Only today to quote Medvedev:

On cannot know outcomes for certain, unless someone has supernatural insight, so decisions are based on intelligence, experience and probability.

Well I'd say getting involved in new cold wars is pretty stupid when Iran feel under existential attack.

There's that saying about 'crossing the rubicon'......that decision was taken and it only benefits Israel and specifically Netty.

It's just continual escalation.....and these wars have the potential for global economic ruin....My energy bill is bad enough as it is.

Personally, I don't trust Iran an inch, and I'm certain that nuclear weapons capability is their goal. That cannot be allowed to happen.
This scenario was always going to happen in time.

Pakistan have nukes and I don't trust them at all.
My opinion is that Israel should fight its own battles but instead it starts wars that no other country gets away with....and no one gets a vote on it.

Going to war against countries you don't like having nuclear weapons isn't going to work because the tech is out there and more and more are going to get it....going to war over it is more likely to kill us all.

Countries either have to come to an understanding or develop other systems....star wars is more technically possible now with AI......Guidance interference stuff like that.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Don't believe any of that stuff it's mostly misdirection, Iran could buy nuclear weapons pretty easily if they wanted to, especially now. Only today to quote Medvedev:
View attachment 1381



Well I'd say getting involved in new cold wars is pretty stupid when Iran feel under existential attack.

There's that saying about 'crossing the rubicon'......that decision was taken and it only benefits Israel and specifically Netty.

It's just continual escalation.....and these wars have the potential for global economic ruin....My energy bill is bad enough as it is.



Pakistan have nukes and I don't trust them at all.
My opinion is that Israel should fight its own battles but instead it starts wars that no other country gets away with....and no one gets a vote on it.

Going to war against countries you don't like having nuclear weapons isn't going to work because the tech is out there and more and more are going to get it....going to war over it is more likely to kill us all.

Countries either have to come to an understanding or develop other systems....star wars is more technically possible now with AI......Guidance interference stuff like that.

I'm not sure I trust Russians to give me honest assessments, but that aside, I wonder why the US would get involved in an attack on nuclear sites if it was a futile gesture. Surely they would have intelligence on who is supplying nukes to whom.
We only have a narrow view of all this. I don't like risking WW3 just like the next bloke, but there must have been a risk versus reward analysis before they dropped the bombs. Warmongering has not been Trump's way until now.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I'm not sure I trust Russians to give me honest assessments,

Well, I was making this point a while ago....it isn't exactly hard to get hold of a nuke today. They don't even have to get it from Russia, there's North Korea, Pakistan, China.

but that aside, I wonder why the US would get involved in an attack on nuclear sites if it was a futile gesture. Surely they would have intelligence on who is supplying nukes to whom.
We only have a narrow view of all this. I don't like risking WW3 just like the next bloke, but there must have been a risk versus reward analysis before they dropped the bombs. Warmongering has not been Trump's way until now.

I think essentially it's about encouraging regime change much more than any idea that you can actually stop Iran from getting a nuke if it wanted.

I tend to rely on Mike Benz on this question as to the motivations..... and he tells us it mainly comes from gaining the support of Miriam Adelson: Contributed over $132 million, primarily to MAGA Inc, she has always been a long-time Trump supporter with a focus on pro-Israeli causes.

Mike Benz is a Jew and pro Israeli but like myself he doesn't think much of this course of action.

Aside from this I think Trump is just pro Israeli as a default, however....that may be one thing....but at the end of the day this comes down to judgement.

He's left himself in a situation where leaving the regime in place now is much more dangerous than before.....and where now Americans themselves are targets.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

Well, I was making this point a while ago....it isn't exactly hard to get hold of a nuke today. They don't even have to get it from Russia, there's North Korea, Pakistan, China.




I think essentially it's about encouraging regime change much more than any idea that you can actually stop Iran from getting a nuke if it wanted.

I tend to rely on Mike Benz on this question as to the motivations..... and he tells us it mainly comes from gaining the support of Miriam Adelson: Contributed over $132 million, primarily to MAGA Inc, she has always been a long-time Trump supporter with a focus on pro-Israeli causes.

Mike Benz is a Jew and pro Israeli but like myself he doesn't think much of this course of action.

Aside from this I think Trump is just pro Israeli as a default, however....that may be one thing....but at the end of the day this comes down to judgement.

If the Iranian government was just a tyranny, I doubt America would be interested. Unfortunately, they are a scourge on the West, and if they had nukes would be a top candidate to use them. On top of that, Trump wants to protect the US' best asset in the Middle East.

Is there more to it? Well there usually is, but that will remain invisible no doubt.

Getting nukes? Well, if Iran could get nukes easily, I'm sure they would have by now.
The question would then be, why haven't they paraded them through Tehran or dropped one on Israel?
The answer to the latter could be because they know it would ensure their own destruction. Or maybe it's just because no one with any sense would let them buy one.
Can we trust apparent religious fanatics to be reasonable? That is the big question.

 

[Stirlingsays]

I try.

I don't know why to be honest.

I'm going to load up Cyberpunk 2077 and forget about the madness.

 

[Hrolf The Ganger]

I try.

I don't know why to be honest.

I'm going to load up Cyberpunk 2077 and forget about the madness.

I can't worry about Armageddon. We will all be dead soon anyway.

The price of diesel? That could get annoying.

 

[Spindle]

Well, I was making this point a while ago....it isn't exactly hard to get hold of a nuke today. They don't even have to get it from Russia, there's North Korea, Pakistan, China.

I think essentially it's about encouraging regime change much more than any idea that you can actually stop Iran from getting a nuke if it wanted.

If it's not hard then how come they haven't so far after years and years of trying.....

The Russians are talking total shite with their pathetic threats, as usual. Hopefully by the time Israel and the USA are done then Iran won't be interested in getting a nuke, nor palling up with the dirty Russians.