Israel v Hamas

[Forest Hillbilly]

So killing 50,000 civilians (including aid workers) and denying food and medicine to those that remain is a reasonable and proportionate response ?
No-one has denied Hamas are terrorist scum who deserve a military response , but the indiscriminate butchery of civilians shocks most people. And that includes Israeli residents.

 

[Penge Eagle]

So killing 50,000 civilians (including aid workers) and denying food and medicine to those that remain is a reasonable and proportionate response ?
No-one has denied Hamas are terrorist scum who deserve a military response , but the indiscriminate butchery of civilians shocks most people. And that includes Israeli residents.

Ah, so you are taking the terrorists' figures as gospel I take it?

Out of that number, no Hamas fighters are included?

Can you define what is a "reasonable and proportionate" response?

 

[HKOwen]

Ah, so you are taking the terrorists' figures as gospel I take it?

Out of that number, no Hamas fighters are included?

Can you define what is a "reasonable and proportionate" response?

There is a terrible number of casualties but not what the Hamas number is, those who quote it are de facto supporting Hamas.

Hamas MoH admits "flaws ", i.e making up numbers and split of demographics

 

[Spindle]

Ah, so you are taking the terrorists' figures as gospel I take it?

Out of that number, no Hamas fighters are included?

Can you define what is a "reasonable and proportionate" response?

I think it's asking them nicely not to be so mean, and perhaps putting IDF troops in harms way in order to just make sure that nobody in Gaza who Hamas claim is innocent gets hurt.

It's utterly delusional and there's no understanding of the history, the situation nor armed conflict.

 

[Spindle]

Not one sided at all

BBC's tense encounter with sanctioned Israeli settler while filming in West Bank

Israeli settler Moshe Sharvit established a so-called 'outpost' in occupied West Bank

www.bbc.co.uk

The Jew is "harassing" the BBC according to them, but the BBC have breached a restraining order and are on his land. He then stops them from leaving BECAUSE he wants to talk to them, which he does calmly, but they label this as confrontational. Then suddenly out of nowhere a "lone woman activist" appears on his property (I wonder why just then and now), but when he confronts her they say that he's harassing her.

So glad I don't pay a licence fee.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Ah, so you are taking the terrorists' figures as gospel I take it?

Out of that number, no Hamas fighters are included?

Can you define what is a "reasonable and proportionate" response?

Based on all the evidence available, what's an estimate your comfortable with as to the death toll?

 

[HKOwen]

Based on all the evidence available, what's an estimate your comfortable with as to the death toll?

For the Hamas terrorists and " govt ", 100% would be fine and dandy for me

 

[CPFCSaturn]

For the Hamas terrorists and " govt ", 100% would be fine and dandy for me

That's not what I asked.

What's an estimated death toll you'd accept as realistic currently?

 

[HKOwen]

That's not what I asked.

What's an estimated death toll you'd accept as realistic currently?

As in actual number, I have no idea, same as everyone on here

 

[CPFCSaturn]

As in actual number, I have no idea, same as everyone on here

Do you think it's likely to be less than 20,000? 30,000?

 

[ASCPFC]

Do you think it's likely to be less than 20,000? 30,000?

If I tell the truth, I reckon it's less. But I'll also be quite surprised if we ever fully know. I'm not condoning it - just giving you an opinion.
My basis for thinking it would be death tolls from previous bombing campaigns such as WW2. I could say more but I don't want to take away from the humanity of dead people.
There are still historical arguments about the civilian death tolls in many wars, again particularly WW2. But also others. Korea is being researched quite a bit these days.

 

[Penge Eagle]

Based on all the evidence available, what's an estimate your comfortable with as to the death toll?

Thanks for engaging at least. Forest Hillbilly posts crap from the anti-Israel BBC and then runs away.

I'm not comfortable with any deaths. I feel just as saddened for the Palestinians lives lost as much as the Jewish ones.

You can't put any number of what is acceptable. You can only look at comparable wars in the region and the civilian death count is lower as I have previously stated in this thread.

Unfortunately with war, civilians and soldiers lose their lives. Hamas is at fault for starting the war as they knew this would happen and knew the useful idiots in the West would swallow their propaganda.

People are very quick to point out this 50,000 lives lost figure as if it's only Israel who should be held accountable.

Hamas have killed their own citizens by using them as human shields, even firing rockets at them by mistake. They could have protected their people by letting them use the tunnel network but have not. The unofficial death count would and should be much lower (zero) if they Hamas was not wrapped up in their evil ideology.

 

[HKOwen]

Do you think it's likely to be less than 20,000? 30,000?

As I wrote, we are equally unqualified to do anything other than guess, which is worthless.

One thing for sure, it would be dramatically less if Hamas had not undertaken the October 7th massacre.

I hope you are not trying to get someone to bite on the " how many dead Palestinians is a dead Israeli worth " which is something I often see being put out there.

That's my final word

 

[CPFCSaturn]

If I tell the truth, I reckon it's less. But I'll also be quite surprised if we ever fully know. I'm not condoning it - just giving you an opinion.
My basis for thinking it would be death tolls from previous bombing campaigns such as WW2. I could say more but I don't want to take away from the humanity of dead people.
There are still historical arguments about the civilian death tolls in many wars, again particularly WW2. But also others. Korea is being researched quite a bit these days.

Fair enough - I think it's considerably more, but as you say, death tolls are often murky - even murkier when journalists and aid agencies are not allowed in to verify reports.

Many sources think the bombing in Gaza has surpassed that in WW2 - Robert Pape, who is a US academic specialising in bombing air power, has stated that the bomb tonnage dropped on Gaza exceeds 70,000 tonnes, which is more than the combined bomb tonnage of Dresden, Hamburg and London.

Information like that, combined with the satellite images of Gaza showing the sheer scale of the destruction... I struggle to see how it's anything but tens of thousands dead, at least.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Thanks for engaging at least. Forest Hillbilly posts crap from the anti-Israel BBC and then runs away.

I'm not comfortable with any deaths. I feel just as saddened for the Palestinians lives lost as much as the Jewish ones.

You can't put any number of what is acceptable. You can only look at comparables and the civilian death count is lower as I have previously stated in this thread.

Unfortunately with war, civilians and soldiers lose their lives. Hamas is at fault for starting the war as they knew this would happen and knew the useful idiots in the West would swallow their propaganda.

People are very quick to point out this 50,000 lives lost figure as if it's only Israel who should be held accountable. Hamas have killed their own citizens by using them as human shields, even firing rockets at them by mistake. They could have protected their people by letting them use the tunnel network but have not. The unofficial death count would and should be much lower if they were not wrapped up in their evil ideology.

There are plenty calling people 'Jew-haters' and running off as well - I think that's more abhorrent than sharing a link from the BBC, personally.

To be clear, my question is not about being comfortable from a moral standpoint - I mean based on the evidence we have, what do you think is a reasonable/logical estimate as to the death toll? I think based on some of what we know (examples in my post above), it's very difficult to make a serious case that we're not talking about tens of thousands dead.

And therefore my overarching point being that I find grandstanding over the 50,000 number to be semantical and largely irrelevant - I don't think there's any credible argument to suggest the death toll is drastically lower than this. Certainly the IDF's numbers are not close to credible.

I'm quick to point out that the military superpower who are directly responsible for the bombing and the withholding of aid from civilians are accountable for the deaths, yes.

We're also back to expecting more morality from the terrorist organisation than the military superpower purporting to respect international law. Funny enough, I expect considerably more morality from the military superpower than I do terrorists.

If we're on the topic of shifting blame onto the target of attacks, we could also get into how Israel could have better 'protected their people' on October 7th, but I don't think blaming the people being attacked is very appropriate.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

As I wrote, we are equally unqualified to do anything other than guess, which is worthless.

One thing for sure, it would be dramatically less if Hamas had not undertaken the October 7th massacre.

I hope you are not trying to get someone to bite on the " how many dead Palestinians is a dead Israeli worth " which is something I often see being put out there.

That's my final word

There is enough information out there to make a reasonable estimate - it's pretty obvious why you don't want to.

 

[HKOwen]

There are plenty calling people 'Jew-haters' and running off as well - I think that's more abhorrent than sharing a link from the BBC, personally.

To be clear, my question is not about being comfortable from a moral standpoint - I mean based on the evidence we have, what do you think is a reasonable/logical estimate as to the death toll? I think based on some of what we know (examples in my post above), it's very difficult to make a serious case that we're not talking about tens of thousands dead.

And therefore my overarching point being that I find grandstanding over the 50,000 number to be semantical and largely irrelevant - I don't think there's any credible argument to suggest the death toll is drastically lower than this. Certainly the IDF's numbers are not close to credible.

I'm quick to point out that the military superpower who are directly responsible for the bombing and the withholding of aid from civilians are accountable for the deaths, yes.

We're also back to expecting more morality from the terrorist organisation than the military superpower purporting to respect international law. Funny enough, I expect considerably more morality from the military superpower than I do terrorists.

Anti semite is too polite, Jew hater is more appropriate. Why are there so many who only start chattering when something involves Israel and not the multiple other wars and deaths around the world.

The irony of course is that socialism was primarily the brainchild of Jewish Europeans and they invented an ideology that despises them.

Similarly grooming gang is too poiite, child rape gangs is more accurate.

I do not support Netanyahu and I wish there was peace, which there will never be while even one Hamas fighter or official is alive in Gaza.

Man's inhumanity to man has been ever thus and will ever be so unfortunately.

 

[CPFCSaturn]

Anti semite is too polite, Jew hater is more appropriate. Why are there so many who only start chattering when something involves Israel and not the multiple other wars and deaths around the world.

The irony of course is that socialism was primarily the brainchild of Jewish Europeans and they invented an ideology that despises them.

Similarly grooming gang is too poiite, child rape gangs is more accurate.

I do not support Netanyahu and I wish there was peace, which there will never be while even one Hamas fighter or official is alive in Gaza.

Man's inhumanity to man has been ever thus and will ever be so unfortunately.

Anti-semite, socialism, grooming gangs all into one post - up the tabloids.

 

[HKOwen]

Anti-semite, socialism, grooming gangs all into one post - up the tabloids.

sadly you have gone from reasoned post to that , only a matter of time I guess

 

[cryrst]

Based on all the evidence available, what's an estimate you’re comfortable with as to the death toll?

The Quran puts two women as worth one man so are we talking how we count or how Muslims count ?