Sage in or out

Sage in or out

  • In

    Votes: 104 38.1%
  • Out

    Votes: 128 46.9%
  • Sit on the fence

    Votes: 41 15.0%

  • Total voters
    273
With recruitment - what's done is done. There is nothing we can do about that. What we have to do is make the best out of what we have. That's on the manager. We can't buy anyone until January - we have to make do and get the best results we can. We're not: that's on the manager.
 
That's seems the sensible thing if the board have made that decision, especially with the six-pointer Coventry and Hull matches being the next two league games after the International Break. I do expect us to beat Hoffenheim on Thursday (even under Sage) but whoever is in charge is unlikely to get anything out of Liverpool.

I see your point. I however would like sage gone tomorrow morning. Paddy to take over and play the system / tactics the new manager will want / play. (Surely we have already sounded him out) So we get hoffenheim and Liverpool games to play the formation / tactics where there's no expectation to win and then the new manager to be announced the Monday after the liverpool game.

I think we did the same before glasner officially took over.

Obviously what I would like / want is neither here nor there 🤣
 
With recruitment - what's done is done. There is nothing we can do about that. What we have to do is make the best out of what we have. That's on the manager. We can't buy anyone until January - we have to make do and get the best results we can. We're not: that's on the manager.
Sage has made it abundantly clear that responsibility lies with him and him alone.
 
Sage lost it for me yesterday through his failure to readjust after the Mateta red card. There was no way we were going to get anything playing 522 or 531 because we were constantly being pressed and overrun in midfield. I'm no coach, just a simple watcher of football, but I would have thought that with 10 men you sacrifice a CB and beef up midfield and play compact in a 441, but then what do I know?
 
I'm more or less resigned to us being relegated. I just can't see anyone getting a good enough team out of the players we presently have.

My great fear is this continues in the Championship. If it can happen to Leicester it can just as easily happen to us.
With Mateta out for the next three PL games - and probably leaving come January, we are in truly dire situation. WIth the trio of Nketiah, Guessand and JSL charing the striker's role - who the fu.k shall score for us? Think we need something special to avoid the drop out of Money League....change of manager probably a good start.
 
I'm more or less resigned to us being relegated. I just can't see anyone getting a good enough team out of the players we presently have.

My great fear is this continues in the Championship. If it can happen to Leicester it can just as easily happen to us.

Even west ham are finding it a hard eld slog at the moment.
 
To those who want Sage to remain, what exactly are they seeing that I’m perhaps missing?
Do they honestly see him putting in a defensive structure to prevent the concession of a couple of goals a game?
Do they see him organising us so that every ball towards the far post is a heart in the mouth moment as opposing players peel away to the far post unchallenged?
The errors are that basic.

I know there is an argument that it’s the same players, so what difference does a new manager make.
Well I don’t have to take you to far back to Holloway being replaced by Pulis.
We looked a totally different proposition under Pulis as a defensive structure was put in place and the whole team was forged into a proper unit knowing exactly what it was doing.

It wasn’t rocket science.
Pulis recognised, unlike Holloway, we were not capable of playing like Barcelona (as noble an aspiration as that may be) and maximised the talents of the players available to him and got them playing to their strengths in an organised set up.
I am saying this as somebody who does not care one way or the other. If Sage turns it around, brilliant but I don't think he will because he is hindered by the cards dealt by the board.

Why people want him to stay has more to do with what might follow. A return to RoyBall.

I've got to say I will take that at the moment because I am tired of watching what we are watching at the moment and having someone like Spurs treat that win like they won the league is too much for me to take.

It is quite scary the lack of managers out there though and when the chips are down Parish will turn to a reset under a Dyche/Frank etc. For me if that is what we end up doing and saying that is the end of the Golden Cycle and we treat this as a back to basics re-set then Dyche is probably the best out there for that task.

f*** me though. How can we have been in the premier league so long and still be so close at all times to collapse. I watched Sunday Supplement this morning and they discussed Brighton. You can't argue that the structure there is superb and as they said, they can afford to get rid of there best players because the owner has full control and most importantly the 'Vision' to keep the train rolling on.

We should have moved forwards several steps after winning the FA cup. Money should have been available to make JPM the highest paid striker. Sarr should have been given more so he did not get his head turned so easily and an actual fixed sum agreed should either of there heads get turned. That is the main stays sorted. Max and Munoz should have been nowhere near being able to leave. When MG left the first priority should have been getting in a proper proven centre back. Not £18m a proper fully experienced centre back.

It would not have needed much. There was no stopping Eze and MG going but the rest is just self harm and shows the lack of vision at our club.

and yes I am aware that we have had it the best we have ever had it and I will always be grateful for that but f*** me the running of our club is f***ing shocking.
 
I am saying this as somebody who does not care one way or the other. If Sage turns it around, brilliant but I don't think he will because he is hindered by the cards dealt by the board.

Why people want him to stay has more to do with what might follow. A return to RoyBall.

I've got to say I will take that at the moment because I am tired of watching what we are watching at the moment and having someone like Spurs treat that win like they won the league is too much for me to take.

It is quite scary the lack of managers out there though and when the chips are down Parish will turn to a reset under a Dyche/Frank etc. For me if that is what we end up doing and saying that is the end of the Golden Cycle and we treat this as a back to basics re-set then Dyche is probably the best out there for that task.

f*** me though. How can we have been in the premier league so long and still be so close at all times to collapse. I watched Sunday Supplement this morning and they discussed Brighton. You can't argue that the structure there is superb and as they said, they can afford to get rid of there best players because the owner has full control and most importantly the 'Vision' to keep the train rolling on.

We should have moved forwards several steps after winning the FA cup. Money should have been available to make JPM the highest paid striker. Sarr should have been given more so he did not get his head turned so easily and an actual fixed sum agreed should either of there heads get turned. That is the main stays sorted. Max and Munoz should have been nowhere near being able to leave. When MG left the first priority should have been getting in a proper proven centre back. Not £18m a proper fully experienced centre back.

It would not have needed much. There was no stopping Eze and MG going but the rest is just self harm and shows the lack of vision at our club.

and yes I am aware that we have had it the best we have ever had it and I will always be grateful for that but f*** me the running of our club is f***ing shocking.

The thing is, I don’t actually think the running of the club is that bad. I agree that some of the decision-making doesn’t appear particularly joined up, but equally, you have to accept that football clubs evolve.

We got very lucky with a golden generation of players who blended together exceptionally well, much like we did in the early 80s and arguably again in the early 90s. I can appreciate why some people think we’ve hit the self-destruct button, but there’s a wider reality here.

We’re not a club that can afford to spend £50m or £60m on a player and simply shrug our shoulders if it doesn’t work out. Historically, when we’ve spent big, it hasn’t always gone particularly well. What we’ve actually been very good at is assembling a collection of raggy dolls, players who might not necessarily fit elsewhere but somehow fit perfectly with us.

The idea that we’d keep Eze, Zaha and Olise together indefinitely was always fanciful. Once players reach that level, bigger clubs come calling. That’s the double-edged sword of success.

And we’ve been here before. Think back a couple of years when people were complaining about selling Andersen and bringing in Lacroix. Yet Lacroix turned out to be an upgrade in virtually every respect. We sold Bolasie for the best part of £30m, and unfortunately he suffered a serious knee injury shortly after joining Everton. We’ve generally been pretty good at knowing when to move players on. We didn’t cash in on Docoure - and look what happened there.

No, I don’t think Matt Hobbs is as good as Dougie Freedman. But I also don’t think our recruitment is the fundamental problem here.

For years, one of our biggest issues has been failing to play to the strengths of the players we actually have. We had Benteke up front in a Roy Hodgson side, despite not having the sort of wingers delivering cross after cross that would have suited him. But at least Roy understood how to organise a defence and make us difficult to beat.

That’s what I want from a manager. Someone who looks at the tools at his disposal and works out how to get the best from them. I’m fairly convinced there are managers out there who could get a decent tune out of this squad.

In fact, I think our squad depth is better now than it has been for some time. The problem is the leadership and organisation on the pitch, and ultimately that comes from the manager.

Personally, I wouldn’t have a goalkeeper as captain. I’d seriously consider Chris Richards or even Will Hughes, someone who can lead from the middle of the action and organise the players around him.

And surely everyone can see we’re crying out for some steel in midfield? I like Kamada and Wharton. They’re technically good players who can offer creativity, but neither is a natural defensive shield. If your defence is struggling, you protect it. You don’t continually leave it exposed and act surprised when the same thing keeps happening.

At the moment, we don’t seem to have a recognisable identity. We’re not particularly solid defensively, we’re not especially effective going forward, and we’re not playing to the strengths of the players we’ve got.

Some of this is undoubtedly transition. We’re never going to be a club that attracts the very biggest names, regardless of whether we can occasionally afford the transfer fees. And whenever we develop genuinely outstanding players, other clubs are going to notice. That’s football, and it’s a cycle we’re going to have to keep managing.

But what’s interesting is that many of the complaints we’re hearing now are exactly the same complaints we heard a few years ago, before the next group of players came together.

I don’t think the squad is fundamentally broken, and I don’t think the club is being run into the ground. I think we’ve got a group of players who need organising, protecting and given a clear identity.

Above all, we need a manager who can lead from the front, recognise what he’s actually got and adapt accordingly.
Because at the moment, I see far more evidence of a coaching problem than a recruitment problem.
 
I am saying this as somebody who does not care one way or the other. If Sage turns it around, brilliant but I don't think he will because he is hindered by the cards dealt by the board.

Why people want him to stay has more to do with what might follow. A return to RoyBall.

I've got to say I will take that at the moment because I am tired of watching what we are watching at the moment and having someone like Spurs treat that win like they won the league is too much for me to take.

It is quite scary the lack of managers out there though and when the chips are down Parish will turn to a reset under a Dyche/Frank etc. For me if that is what we end up doing and saying that is the end of the Golden Cycle and we treat this as a back to basics re-set then Dyche is probably the best out there for that task.

f*** me though. How can we have been in the premier league so long and still be so close at all times to collapse. I watched Sunday Supplement this morning and they discussed Brighton. You can't argue that the structure there is superb and as they said, they can afford to get rid of there best players because the owner has full control and most importantly the 'Vision' to keep the train rolling on.

We should have moved forwards several steps after winning the FA cup. Money should have been available to make JPM the highest paid striker. Sarr should have been given more so he did not get his head turned so easily and an actual fixed sum agreed should either of there heads get turned. That is the main stays sorted. Max and Munoz should have been nowhere near being able to leave. When MG left the first priority should have been getting in a proper proven centre back. Not £18m a proper fully experienced centre back.

It would not have needed much. There was no stopping Eze and MG going but the rest is just self harm and shows the lack of vision at our club.

and yes I am aware that we have had it the best we have ever had it and I will always be grateful for that but f*** me the running of our club is f***ing shocking.
Yes but wind the clock back to a similar point last season and the pundits were saying the same about us. We’d just beaten the defending champions, had the best defence in the division and were the only unbeaten team. People (not Palace fans) were asking if we might challenge for Champions League places.

Go back ten years and Southampton were the poster boys for a well run club that could lose players and still win. That worked right up until it didn’t.

The reality is that outside of 6 or so clubs every premier league club is close to collapse. All it takes is a bad transfer window. Losing key players who this time you can’t replace. Going on a bad run. We are no different and truth be told nor are Brentford, Brighton and the rest.
 
I think you are being gentle and not hard hitting. Parish, Hobbs and Sage have all taken their eye off the ball. We need a manager that can use what we have until we can add in the next transfer window. Instead we have Sage madly urging our wing backs forward and conceding multiple goals at the back post.
 
I cannot imagine a scenario where Sage is allowed to continue as there are just too many red flags. Tactical inflexibility, unable to reset the team properly yesterday, questionable selections, Wharton drop off in form and of course no real reason to believe we will stop shipping goals. With 10 men behind the ball, 20% possession, I do not concur with the sentiments we defended well of 80 minutes. I do think the team mentality though is strong, because against a better side than Spurs, who would have opened us up it could have been a cricket score.

Like everyone else, totally agree that the issues and relegation form are a product of bad recruitment, not entirely the managers fault. But, the squad is deeper than last year and I have a bit of a contrary view in that losing Lacroix was not as pivotal as most think - notwithstanding we messed up the transfer window in that department. Unfortunately I have to conclude that Dyche is the best option for the squad we have right now with urgent defensive reinforcements and cash on the table in January.

I can't imagine a top manager coming in with our current squad inventory and Thomas Frank is questionable (maybe Keith Andrews was the real reason for his success at Brentford?), notwithstanding they have a proper recruitment/development program and probably a much better managed organization. McKenna would be a top manager, but why would he risk coming here when Parish and Co. don't support the manager with quality signings. It seems the cub strategy is to lurch from one season to another with band-aid repairs and no capacity for building ambition. We got lucky in the FA cup, best moments ever, but now the reality of underinverstment and poor recruitment is coming home to roost. Apologies for the rant stating the obvious, but none of this was necessary with proper foresight and proper planning!
 
Yes but wind the clock back to a similar point last season and the pundits were saying the same about us. We’d just beaten the defending champions, had the best defence in the division and were the only unbeaten team. People (not Palace fans) were asking if we might challenge for Champions League places.

Go back ten years and Southampton were the poster boys for a well run club that could lose players and still win. That worked right up until it didn’t.

The reality is that outside of 6 or so clubs every premier league club is close to collapse. All it takes is a bad transfer window. Losing key players who this time you can’t replace. Going on a bad run. We are no different and truth be told nor are Brentford, Brighton and the rest.
Any team can act like West Ham, think they are too big to go down because they recently won something, and act complacent. In our case the point is to be aware of this and not make the same mistakes through bad decisions. Currently we are making those bad decisions. Parish can look as pissed off as he likes after a game, ultimately it comes down to him and the team around him to make the correct decisions, the first of which is to replace Sage. And then onward from there. Of course there is no guarantee that the replacement will do any better, but here we are.
 
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I cannot imagine a scenario where Sage is allowed to continue as there are just too many red flags. Tactical inflexibility, unable to reset the team properly yesterday, questionable selections, Wharton drop off in form and of course no real reason to believe we will stop shipping goals. With 10 men behind the ball, 20% possession, I do not concur with the sentiments we defended well of 80 minutes. I do think the team mentality though is strong, because against a better side than Spurs, who would have opened us up it could have been a cricket score.

Like everyone else, totally agree that the issues and relegation form are a product of bad recruitment, not entirely the managers fault. But, the squad is deeper than last year and I have a bit of a contrary view in that losing Lacroix was not as pivotal as most think - notwithstanding we messed up the transfer window in that department. Unfortunately I have to conclude that Dyche is the best option for the squad we have right now with urgent defensive reinforcements and cash on the table in January.

I can't imagine a top manager coming in with our current squad inventory and Thomas Frank is questionable (maybe Keith Andrews was the real reason for his success at Brentford?), notwithstanding they have a proper recruitment/development program and probably a much better managed organization. McKenna would be a top manager, but why would he risk coming here when Parish and Co. don't support the manager with quality signings. It seems the cub strategy is to lurch from one season to another with band-aid repairs and no capacity for building ambition. We got lucky in the FA cup, best moments ever, but now the reality of underinverstment and poor recruitment is coming home to roost. Apologies for the rant stating the obvious, but none of this was necessary with proper foresight and proper planning!
We haven’t under invested. We spent £80m on players in January! What we have done is invested in players who haven’t worked out. Do people really think though Johnson and JSL were signed without Glasner having a lot of input?

The issue is with recruitment as you say but not the spend. We’ve spent pretty much all we can under current financial rules. The issue is we’ve not spent it well
 
Any team can act like West Ham, think they are too big to go down because they recently won something, and act complacent. In our case the point is to be aware of this and not make the same mistakes through bad decisions. Currently we are making those bad decisions. Parish can look as pissed off as he likes after a game, ultimately it comes down to him and the team around him to make the correct decisions, the first of which is to replace Sage. And then onward from there. Of course there is no guarantee that the replacement will do any better, but here we are.
Agreed. The sooner we change the better. Really we should have made the decision after Brighton. All we’ve done by holding onto Sage is chuck away two games we maybe could have got points from. Unless we think he is going to be here in May (and almost nobody does) we should get rid now
 
We haven’t under invested. We spent £80m on players in January! What we have done is invested in players who haven’t worked out. Do people really think though Johnson and JSL were signed without Glasner having a lot of input?

The issue is with recruitment as you say but not the spend. We’ve spent pretty much all we can under current financial rules. The issue is we’ve not spent it well
fair point - those signings were really poor!
 
We haven’t under invested. We spent £80m on players in January! What we have done is invested in players who haven’t worked out. Do people really think though Johnson and JSL were signed without Glasner having a lot of input?

The issue is with recruitment as you say but not the spend. We’ve spent pretty much all we can under current financial rules. The issue is we’ve not spent it well
Exactly this. There's been a lot of rubbish spoken about Parish trying to wing it and get by with sticky plaster and cheapos etc., as if there were millions left in the transfer kitty unspent. There isn't - we've spent it but not well. With the accounting year for UEFA's SCR ending on 31st December (see Article 93 of "UEFA Club Licensing and Financial Sustainability Regulations", in the link below, we should (if I understand things correctly, and I might not) have some headroom with the Jan 26 transfer deals dropping out of the calculations to some extent.


As others have said, we're hamstrung by rules that favour the big boys and which are intended to keep them at the top of the tree. UEFA really don't want the likes of us in the Champions League or even the Europa League.

Yes, the 3 Bs are doing well, but like us, a couple of underwhelming transfer windows will see them nosedive if they aren't able to replace key players sold with quality.
 
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I cannot imagine a scenario where Sage is allowed to continue as there are just too many red flags. Tactical inflexibility, unable to reset the team properly yesterday, questionable selections, Wharton drop off in form and of course no real reason to believe we will stop shipping goals. With 10 men behind the ball, 20% possession, I do not concur with the sentiments we defended well of 80 minutes. I do think the team mentality though is strong, because against a better side than Spurs, who would have opened us up it could have been a cricket score.

Like everyone else, totally agree that the issues and relegation form are a product of bad recruitment, not entirely the managers fault. But, the squad is deeper than last year and I have a bit of a contrary view in that losing Lacroix was not as pivotal as most think - notwithstanding we messed up the transfer window in that department. Unfortunately I have to conclude that Dyche is the best option for the squad we have right now with urgent defensive reinforcements and cash on the table in January.

I can't imagine a top manager coming in with our current squad inventory and Thomas Frank is questionable (maybe Keith Andrews was the real reason for his success at Brentford?), notwithstanding they have a proper recruitment/development program and probably a much better managed organization. McKenna would be a top manager, but why would he risk coming here when Parish and Co. don't support the manager with quality signings. It seems the cub strategy is to lurch from one season to another with band-aid repairs and no capacity for building ambition. We got lucky in the FA cup, best moments ever, but now the reality of underinverstment and poor recruitment is coming home to roost. Apologies for the rant stating the obvious, but none of this was necessary with proper foresight and proper planning!
I agree with the verdit regarding the defending yesterday. I would say that you can't judge that area because we always had 10 players behind the ball and made no attempt to counter or reset with a plan. Welll not visibly anyway. Therein lies the main issue with Sage imho. I was very much on the side of "he was given a bad hand" but looking at tit, he was appointed fairly early and must have had a say in recruitment. I have said many times that as "beggers" we can't be "choosers" in the transfer market and the situation regarding the plethora of possible CB's turing us down supports that view. I would therefore be in favour of terminating the contract with Sage bearing in mind of his being tactically stubbourn. Even with 11, the first Spurs corner saw 2 players unmarked at the far post. Just like at Fulham two days earlier. We see it, the MotD goons see it, why not our coaching staff. trouble is, who would/could make a difference??? All of the mentioned names have had regular success and ours needs to be instant. I am, sadly, like a fellow poster above resigned to our fate and have bigger concerns over what happens next season.
 
I agree with the verdit regarding the defending yesterday. I would say that you can't judge that area because we always had 10 players behind the ball and made no attempt to counter or reset with a plan. Welll not visibly anyway. Therein lies the main issue with Sage imho. I was very much on the side of "he was given a bad hand" but looking at tit, he was appointed fairly early and must have had a say in recruitment. I have said many times that as "beggers" we can't be "choosers" in the transfer market and the situation regarding the plethora of possible CB's turing us down supports that view. I would therefore be in favour of terminating the contract with Sage bearing in mind of his being tactically stubbourn. Even with 11, the first Spurs corner saw 2 players unmarked at the far post. Just like at Fulham two days earlier. We see it, the MotD goons see it, why not our coaching staff. trouble is, who would/could make a difference??? All of the mentioned names have had regular success and ours needs to be instant. I am, sadly, like a fellow poster above resigned to our fate and have bigger concerns over what happens next season.
We are on the opening day in November with several months remaining in the season, accordingly I have not resigned to our fate at this juncture.
My brow though is corrugated with concern.
 
I agree with the verdit regarding the defending yesterday. I would say that you can't judge that area because we always had 10 players behind the ball and made no attempt to counter or reset with a plan. Welll not visibly anyway. Therein lies the main issue with Sage imho. I was very much on the side of "he was given a bad hand" but looking at tit, he was appointed fairly early and must have had a say in recruitment. I have said many times that as "beggers" we can't be "choosers" in the transfer market and the situation regarding the plethora of possible CB's turing us down supports that view. I would therefore be in favour of terminating the contract with Sage bearing in mind of his being tactically stubbourn. Even with 11, the first Spurs corner saw 2 players unmarked at the far post. Just like at Fulham two days earlier. We see it, the MotD goons see it, why not our coaching staff. trouble is, who would/could make a difference??? All of the mentioned names have had regular success and ours needs to be instant. I am, sadly, like a fellow poster above resigned to our fate and have bigger concerns over what happens next season.
Agree but I think calling Sage out as a tit is a bit harsh 🤣🤣
 

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